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Uses for Glycerine By-Products Description

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  #1  
Old 11-22-2008, 03:59 PM
fuelfarmer fuelfarmer is offline
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What,if anything, are small scale soap makers that sell soap doing about product liability? Is there a good source for insurance that is affordable? I talked to someone in the insurance business and he told me that soap falls under health and beauty aids. He said health and beauty products are a higher risk with higher premiums than say farm raised produce. That seems a little strange to me.
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Old 11-25-2008, 04:50 PM
Graydon Blair Graydon Blair is offline
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It's a little tricky....
Legal has researched it the best & is the best to answer the question, but part of it depends on how you sell the stuff.

Key word: Home Made.
It falls under the FDA if I remember right, but there's some things you can do to protect yourself with it...

Watch for Legal to pipe in on it.

-Graydon
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  #3  
Old 11-25-2008, 06:54 PM
freesoul freesoul is offline
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In the USA as long as you don't claim it has any moisturizing or antibacterial properties than there is no regulation.

My wife setup a LLC and will also soon be purchasing insurance if it hasn't been done already. the quote was from Allstate listed under craft business and was only about $300 year. I'm an insurance broker and am astonished at that low premium.

Wash Tyme Soap
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:00 AM
RNCarl RNCarl is offline
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Try Here:

Handcrafted Soap Makers Guild,

I bought the insurance and have membership
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:52 AM
Legal Eagle Legal Eagle is offline
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In order to need liability insurance you first have to have a product that will potentially cause litigation.
The US FDA description of "true soap" is an acid and alkali and water as the ingredients and that the saponification ocurs due to these acids when mixed with the alkali and water.
Although the US FDA has a listing true soap does not fall under their mandate, it belongs to Consumer Protection.
If a "soap" claims to be nothing but soap in teh traditional interpretation of the word then it is, other than CP's general regs, unregulated and ingredienst do not require listing on teh packaging.
Now, if any sort of cosmetic claim is made (moisturising, skin softening ect.) it then does fall into the mandate of the US FDA under cosmetics and in the case of "skin softening it also falls into "drugs". Any claim to the effect that it cures anything (dandruff, poison ivy ect.) drops it square into the drugs category and this IS regulated by the US FDA in that country.
Plain soap that is marketed as "soap", a product that Granny, the Amish and Menonites have been making for centuries, is NOT controlled by any FDA legislation and is actually specifically excluded from their regulations by name.

All that said, this only applies to the USA, where normal thinking has prevailed.

In Canada and Europe ALL soap, irrespective of whether "handmade" of basic acid/alkli/watter or filled with a slurry of chemical crap like many commercial offerings fall into a single category-cosmetics as regulated by INCI International Nomenclature of Cosmetic Ingredients, which has it's own dictiopnary and uses it's own language that is Latin based. The premise is that it makes it internationally understandable. IMO, it makes it internationally confusing as heell.

Most traditional soap makers see liability insurance as a necessity, and rightly they should given all the various elements that are found in their soaps; to make them look a certain way, smell a certain way, lather a certain way and colour,and come in a variety of colours and textures including but not limited to sparkles and beads imbedded. So with so many "ingredients" you have multiplpied to avenues of potential liability to occur; some dye stains something, someone's skin reacts to all those chems in there or excessive caustic needed to saponify the lot and not propely checking the results, little sparkly things and/or beads get swallowed ect. ect. ect.

Some people thin I am a bit of a simpleton because I am a purist when it comes to soap making, keeping it an acid, and alkli and water with the addition of essential oils for scenting; NOTHING else. This product does NOT open itself up to litigational issues as it has centuries of proven safe usage to support it (even if INCI is as anal as you can get about it). The situation in the United States is simpler than it is elswhere were INCI is in full effect which is why I do not sell "soap" as a cosmetic cleanser. What I have is an all purpose soap degreaser and stain remover and that is what my labels reflect along with the list of ingredients which area as follows;
concentrated glycerides and free fatty acids from vegetable oil,saponification agent, water and essential oil where scented.

Sure the ingredient list describes a "true soap" but because of INCI being in full effect here I can't call it that unless I want to dance through all kinds of hoops and levels of bureaucracy, which I don't.

Some research links on the subject (all this stuff is in the updated Guide3 as well):

US FDA "soap"
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-215.html

US FDA Cosmetics Labeling
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-lab4.html

US INCI consideration (excluding true soap
http://www.lotioncrafter.com/store/INCI-p-3.html

US FDA Cosmetic, Drug or Soap ?
http://www.cfsan.fda.gov/~dms/cos-218.html

US FDA April 2008 exclusionary of "soap"
http://www.accessdata.fda.gov/scripts/cdrh/cfdocs/cfcfr...Node=21:7.0.1.2.11.3

Cosmetics Regs Canada

Guidelines for Cosmetics Manufacturers, Importers and Distributors Canada

Cosmetics and Personal Care Canada

Completion of Cosmetic Notification Forms Canada Yup, you need a guide to help you fill out the cosmetics registration form. Handmade or Revlon is all the same to them.

A decent list of INCI names

And there is still more but this should cover most question on that subject.

Whatever is listed for Canada as pertaining cosmetics listings ect also applies to Europe, so before you go strapping a nice label that says "soap" on your new bars made from the glycerine layer understand that all it takes is one ofuscated individual to cause you a world of hurt which will cost them NOTHING as the taxpayer funded "authorities" will do it all FOR them (after they fill out all the necessary forms and sign them in triplicate ect., of course)

Any potential litigation arising from soap making from just the basic acid/alkali/water mix
would vary depending on the jurisdiction, although it is my firm opinion that in the US it is a moot point as long as the product stays a "true soap" not contaminated with a concoction of chemicals and dubious aesthetic additives.

In jurisdictions governed by full INCI regulations it is simpler to just not call the product a "soap" in the cosmetic sense (at least not in the labeling.What you call it face to face is another matter and best left to those who would be making it).

For litigation to be successful in a civil case there must be proof of negligeance by the defendant. This onus of proof is solely the petitioner's. So, unless the petitioner can prove that you made a soap with questionable ingredients that can be shown to be a hazzard there is no case.

Even under INCI's regulations what is deemed an "incidental ingredient" meaning one that was used in the manufacture of the product but is no longer present in the final product need not be listed.


And, although quite verbose that's all folks (for now)
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Old 11-26-2008, 12:10 PM
Murphy Murphy is offline
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WOW....

You really know your stuff.
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Old 11-26-2008, 02:03 PM
Rick K Rick K is offline
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This is really great information about liabilities of our soaps. We should pay close attention to what we use while making our soap and even more attention to the final pH of the soap. Caustic soap is indeed a liability.

However, With respect to Legal and his research on soap liability.
I would like to make one correction...

Quote:
Originally posted by Legal Eagle:
excessive caustic needed to saponify the lot
Any saponifiable ingredient added to the soap whole oil, fatty acid, and our byproducts should all be fully saponified. The caustic will only be in excess or excessive if you have calculated or measured incorrectly. Otherwise all of the caustic will have been used up and any saponifiable ingredient will have been converted to soap.

Excessive caustic can occur when making just the vanilla soap using only our byproducts and caustic.

All soap prior to use, cold process or hot process should be caustic hot tested. The resulting pH should be between 9.5 and 10.5. If the pH falls between those numbers there will be no excessive caustic.

Properly measured saponifiable ingredients with the properly calculated and measured caustic will result in soap with a proper pH. The amount of caustic is the amount required for saponification and is not excessive. This is not an opinion, this is a fact.

Superfatting or Discounting can be done to ensure a soap that is not caustic hot.

Other additives that do not make soap should be chosen carefully if you are planning to sell the soap.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:00 PM
freesoul freesoul is offline
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probably the biggest liability is if any peanut oil was used or any shellfish cooked in it, in regards to allergies. We have a disclaimer on our website.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:02 PM
Rick K Rick K is offline
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Very good point.
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Old 11-26-2008, 06:17 PM
bernyjb bernyjb is offline
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Quote:
if any peanut oil was used
Some time ago I started a thread about that here.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/foru...1/m/6411062052

It didn't get too many replies, but he ones it did get agreed that the allergens in peanut oil should not reach the glycerin.
Of course, anyways, is better safe than sorry...
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Old 11-26-2008, 07:51 PM
Graydon Blair Graydon Blair is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Murphy:
WOW....

You really know your stuff.
There's a LONG story behind why he learned all that..... [grin]....

Let's just say some nit-wit messed with the wrong person....ROFL! (Right Legal?) Heh heh heh...

-Graydon
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Old 11-26-2008, 08:40 PM
Legal Eagle Legal Eagle is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graydon Blair:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Murphy:
WOW....

You really know your stuff.
There's a LONG story behind why he learned all that..... [grin]....

Let's just say some nit-wit messed with the wrong person....ROFL! (Right Legal?) Heh heh heh...

-Graydon </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate to fight but once pushed into it I believe in doing as thorough a job as is possible.
"There ain't no such creature as a gentleman's war". - me :-)

The "nit wit" in question didn't bother to look up any facts before launching a public attack, relying rather on cherry picked information that she conveniently spun into scare mongering which caused hurt in reputation and financial revenue.

Said nit wit has, as a result, attracted legal action and as a bonus dragged a farily well known American learning institution into it with her as my correspondance with the dean of law of said institution went unanswered making of them complicit and so now a law firm has it.

All that said though shows that it is important to have at your disposition as much correct information as is possible so as to discourage any bottom feeders from trying to "try" you behind your back with people who may not be aware of the facts.

When you know your product is safe, and the fewer the variables in play the simpler that is to prove, you will be prepared to answer any petition rather than be left reeling from a surprise attack.

Biodiesel glycerine soap making is not an established mainstream fact (yet) although I am very confident that it soon will be, so that means that it is even more important for us to be able to meet any type of direct inquiry with simple to understand information, using established norms as much as possible where available, and by such keep the boogie man in check. We are, after all, pioneering a whole new field of soap making never before seen, even though SIMILAR methods have been used for centuries, and that is what gives us our base foundation and what has also established basic regulations governing the methods.

While we have an acid and alkali and water as the basic components of our soap, it is not in the traditional sense of the methodology as part of the process comes by way of another avenue, that of transesterifying vegetable oils where the soap making base is a by-product and not the prime target. This is the part that completely escapes the traditionalists who do not seem to be able to get their heads around the concept at all and not being able to understand it find temselves in need of fighting it, even if they are doing so with one hand tied firmly behind their back. And quite frankly, trying to teach a blind man colours is frustrating at it's simplest moment.

To get back on track a bit; it is from these people (the traditionalist soap makers) that you will get the most resistance and also the ones that will stir up the most negative attacks against what you do. They do not have a leg to stand on, but they think they do, which of course makes them more than a little annoying.

The largest, and most influencial regroupment of traditional soapers in the United States, The Handcrafted SoapMakers Guild, is fully aware of the position of the FDA on what constitutes "true soap" and it's components, however this has not stopped some of their membership and their associated hangers-on from belittling and denouncing biodiesel glycerine soap making quite vociferously, even though it's own President has acknowledged not understanding the process to me in email correspondance when I attempted to lodge a complaint for breach of ethics based on their own "Code of Ethics". Membership is paid and so they look out for their own despite what their "code" by which they got their not-for-profit status with says.

Soap is serious business people, as odd as that may sound. And what we have in our product(s) has every potential to unseat many of what these traditionalists have offered for years and some of them are very nervous about this fact. Not only do we have an excellent product, but it can be made considerably cheaper than anything they have (considering the amount of "stuff" and add-ons they put in it) and so in a head to head venue we will ALWAYS be able to undercut their pricing, ALWAYS, without exception.

So basically it boils down to a simple fact; the more ingredients you have in your soap the more you will need to know exactly what you are doing and the less of a margin for error you will have as the variables are increased commensurately with the additives or ingredients used.

Some don't mind piling it on because they know what they are doing, like anyone familiar with scientific stuff, but, IMO, it is no place for the uninitiated if there is any intention of taking the product to market.

Another long winded .02 worth. I gotta learn to condense.
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Old 11-26-2008, 09:55 PM
fuelfarmer fuelfarmer is offline
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Quote:
Said nit wit has, as a result, attracted legal action and as a bonus dragged a farily well known American learning institution into it with her as my correspondance with the dean of law of said institution went unanswered making of them complicit and so now a law firm has it
Sounds like someone will need to use their LIABILITY INSURANCE and it sound like it involves soap.
The reason I ask the original question is there seems to be no limit to risk if you try to do business.
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