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Jeep CRD/Common Rail Diesel Description

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  #26  
Old 07-29-2008, 04:31 AM
gmman5 gmman5 is offline
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Hello also very happy to see a few bio pro 190 users here.I've been using my bio pro 190 for about 2 months and running b100 in my jeep liberty crd and my GMC sierra duramax. With absolutly no issues.I'm kinda wondering what the colder weather is going to bring here in Idaho.I really like not having to go to the local filling station.
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  #27  
Old 08-25-2008, 04:08 PM
AustroTom AustroTom is offline
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Hello WilliamBrown,

Any new comments after running your CRD for over 4 months now?? I'm still kinda worried about the DPF issue.

Thomas
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  #28  
Old 08-25-2008, 05:29 PM
UFO UFO is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by AustroTom:
Hello All,

I'm brand new here
I am also using the biodieselnow forum, but I think you guys have great threads going.
I am too in the process of getting a Grand Cherokee Overland 2007 CRD and want to run it on B100. I have heard though that the DPF (diesel particulate filter) does not bode well with bio. There is a thread going on about this on bdn, but since no one drives one of them, it's not excactly info first hand.

So, do you guys have any concerns regarding the DPF and it's regen cycle?

Thomas
I can't say I have many concerns about DPFs and regen. The BLUETEC DPF system injects extra fuel to periodically burn out the DPF, when it gets plugged. The concern is this extra fuel gets into the engine oil, however I've not seen any evidence (via oil analysis) that good biodiesel will cause harm to engine oil. The NBB has raised the issue, but all I've seen is hand-waving arguments.

I just got a link to this:
Quote:
Lube oil samples that were collected throughout the year showed that B20 caused no harm and, in some cases, actually resulted in less soot and wear on metals than the ULSD samples.
http://www.biodieselmagazine.com/art...rticle_id=2677


Myself, I'd core out that DPF and see that fuel never got wasted in a useless regeneration cycle.
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  #29  
Old 08-26-2008, 12:30 AM
AustroTom AustroTom is offline
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Yayyyyyhhhhhh!

Thomas
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  #30  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:20 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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The Jeep CRD 3.0L used in the Grand Cherokee is approved for B5 fuel only as per Mercedes who manufactures the engine. You will void factory warranty with anything over B5. This reply is from Jeep Engineering:
We understand the desire to run bio-fuels, and we would like to do so in the future. There are 2 main issues with using bio-diesels more than B5-B20.
1. Cold start - biodiesel fuel have significant issues with gelling
2. High pressure fuel system durability - biodiesel lubricity is not well controlled

When the fuel industry have a standard for the fuel so the lubricity and chemistry of the fuel are standardized, then we can really work on solving the remaining issues using bio-diesel fuel.
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  #31  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:27 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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You will not be able to core out the DPF as the filter itself has a sensor to monitor pressure to trigger a regeneration cycle. If it is removed the vehicle will only run in a "limp home mode". Many users have reported that DPF regeneration occurs more frequently using bio-diesel. It may be due to the quality itself of the fuel. More regeneration cycles will lower the longevity of the DPF filter itself. I would love to run bio but don't want to add to the expense of a replacement DPF down the road sooner than necessary as I imagine it will not be a cheap replacement.
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  #32  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:37 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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Response to tombrown post above:

The fuel filter is located on top of the engine just in front of the air intake to the turbo/swirl motor. It is positioned there to heat the fuel. The water separator sensor is located inside the fuel filter. This filter swirls the fuel to separate the water. Oil changes are expensive because this engine requires an oil spec of MB290.51 low ash oil. This oil is used to prolong the DPF filter and to meet emission standards that were increased because of this engine. I buy the oil necessary at www.avlubricants.com and oil filter for a total of $110.00 and do it myself. The oil is a high quality Mobile 1 synthetic meeting the MB290.51 low ash specifications and does last longer. Jeep says to change the oil at 12,500, 6,250 severe usage miles with Mercedes recommended interval at 10,000 miles. I also have installed a ProVent CCV intake by-pass to collect any oil before entering the intake.
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  #33  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:40 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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I should also mention that another reason for a higher price oil change is that this engine also takes 10 quarts or 9.5 liters.
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  #34  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:43 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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Quote:
BioPro190
I am interested in running Bio-diesel myself but have any of you with 07's have any issues so far. I would like to run maybe B20 at first. Is there a specification for a good bio-fuel at any pumps to make sure I get a good grade of fuel?
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  #35  
Old 10-08-2008, 09:45 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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This is the same engine as used in the Sprinter van. Finding a Sprinter dealer would be recommended for engine maintenance as it has been my experience that non-Sprinter dealers know very little about this engine.
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  #36  
Old 10-08-2008, 10:10 PM
UFO UFO is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyVideo:
You will not be able to core out the DPF as the filter itself has a sensor to monitor pressure to trigger a regeneration cycle. If it is removed the vehicle will only run in a "limp home mode". Many users have reported that DPF regeneration occurs more frequently using bio-diesel. It may be due to the quality itself of the fuel. More regeneration cycles will lower the longevity of the DPF filter itself. I would love to run bio but don't want to add to the expense of a replacement DPF down the road sooner than necessary as I imagine it will not be a cheap replacement.
Any sensor can be replaced with a dummy to mimic a valid input to the ECM.
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  #37  
Old 10-08-2008, 10:12 PM
UFO UFO is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyVideo:
This reply is from Jeep Engineering:
We understand the desire to run bio-fuels, and we would like to do so in the future. There are 2 main issues with using bio-diesels more than B5-B20.
1. Cold start - biodiesel fuel have significant issues with gelling
2. High pressure fuel system durability - biodiesel lubricity is not well controlled
Interesting that Jeep should have an issue with the increased lubricity of biodiesel....
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  #38  
Old 10-09-2008, 06:19 PM
TonyVideo TonyVideo is offline
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Isn't replacing a sensor on the DPF illegal with a dummy sensor? I know this sensor works in tandem with the other sensors as well on the exhaust. If this is not illegal then I might investigate the possibility when I pass the 36,000 mile warranty. Just a thought.
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  #39  
Old 10-09-2008, 06:55 PM
UFO UFO is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyVideo:
Isn't replacing a sensor on the DPF illegal with a dummy sensor? I know this sensor works in tandem with the other sensors as well on the exhaust. If this is not illegal then I might investigate the possibility when I pass the 36,000 mile warranty. Just a thought.
I'm sure coring the DPF is illegal too. No point in disabling the sensor if you aren't going to get rid of the filter.

Any modification of the emissions system IS ILLEGAL. I'm just saying that these new emissions systems on diesels are excessive -- they hurt the performance and do very little to improve the emissions. Best example EGR. EGR has no place on a diesel.

This DPF is another example -- someone here recently posted they got 0% opacity on an older diesel using vegetable oil fuel. That vehicle has no use for a DPF, and a newer one would burn just as clean using biodiesel or vegetable oil. Stop burning these disgusting petroleum fuels and the excessive emissions equipment requirements go away as well.
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  #40  
Old 10-11-2008, 04:25 AM
Magellan Magellan is offline
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I have an 08 and just started running B20 at about 4,000 miles. I only run 2 tanks so far, so not enough to know much, but no problems so far.

BTW, here's an interesting thread on what turned out to be a fuel injector problem on an 07. Not conclusive it was due to BD use, but the owner ran B99 in it.

http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showt...=588449&page=8
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  #41  
Old 10-13-2008, 07:14 PM
tombrown tombrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyVideo:
The Jeep CRD 3.0L used in the Grand Cherokee is approved for B5 fuel only as per Mercedes who manufactures the engine. You will void factory warranty with anything over B5. This reply is from Jeep Engineering:
We understand the desire to run bio-fuels, and we would like to do so in the future. There are 2 main issues with using bio-diesels more than B5-B20.
1. Cold start - biodiesel fuel have significant issues with gelling
2. High pressure fuel system durability - biodiesel lubricity is not well controlled

When the fuel industry have a standard for the fuel so the lubricity and chemistry of the fuel are standardized, then we can really work on solving the remaining issues using bio-diesel fuel.
Thanks for the previous replies and this post. This time around I decided to do he oil change. The problem was finding an oil filter. After quite a search, I found a couple of products on tomsbuyandsell.com. I found the right filter for this 08 cherokee diesel and a oil tank heating pad. I had this pad put on on the base of my oil tank and it makes my block heater look like a popsicle. For those that are worried about the cold and the startup problems in winter, this pad has been great for my cherokee. she is not craky in the morning anymore.
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  #42  
Old 10-23-2008, 02:08 AM
Sam Crowe Sam Crowe is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by TonyVideo:
This reply is from Jeep Engineering:
We understand the desire to run bio-fuels, and we would like to do so in the future. There are 2 main issues with using bio-diesels more than B5-B20.
1. Cold start - biodiesel fuel have significant issues with gelling
2. High pressure fuel system durability - biodiesel lubricity is not well controlled
Two tank vegoil system should cover these?

My understanding, regarding the conversion of the 6.4L Ford truck to vegoil, is that the problem with the DPF is that it uses diesel to burn the particulates, but since vegoil has a different ignition temp the particulate burner doesn't work correctly if the truck is running on vegoil when the sensor calls for the burn.

But, apparently there are third party computer flashes that will disable the DPF. To, of course, use off road.

I'd like to find a 4-wheel drive diesel to convert to run vegoil, larger and more comfortable than the Liberty, yet smaller than a truck. I'm looking into the Jeep Cherokee to see if it would work out.

Thanks for everyone's comments in this thread.

Sam
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  #43  
Old 10-26-2008, 06:55 PM
tombrown tombrown is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by tombrown:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by B.K. Hosken:
just wondered if anyone had gotten the new diesel Cherokee, and have you tried BD in it?
I have had my Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel for almost 6 months now. so far 3 shell shocks. The unit is very loud on highway driving. I went to three lube shops and they all told me they could not even find the fuel filter in this vehicle. when I took it in to the dealership, oil change was $250 for this unit. Seeing as I am driving more highway, the higher price of diesel and the cost of maintenance, I have made a bad decision on buying this unit. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
After my first shock with the oil change, I have done my own change this round and it cost me less than $75 now. I got 12L of Synthetic from C-Tire for less than $60 and got the fuel filter from tomsbuyandsell.com and changed it myself. The stealership wanted $60 just for the filter and another $110 for 9L of oil. $75 for 10000KM is more like it.
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  #44  
Old 10-27-2008, 01:38 AM
I Roll I Roll is offline
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Oils filters (Mann hu821x) can be found online for about $12. NAPA sells an oil filter for $9.49. However, these are paper filters, not fleece. Best price on synthetic oil is Walmart but I haven't seen anything that meets the MB 228.51 standard.

Anyone know of a good source for fleece filters a the correct spec oil? I've been told that, with the fleece filter and correct oil, you can go 15k mi between oil changes. Is this correct? Is it worth it?
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  #45  
Old 11-02-2008, 01:42 AM
eeeehaw eeeehaw is offline
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I bought a 2008 JGC Overland 4x4 in Aug'08, and now have almost 7,000 mi of mostly expressway on it. I have run mostly B20 biodiesel in it since new, but have moved up to B50 recently since there's now a quality commercial fuel outlet nearby for that. I notice that the engine seems to run a little bit quieter on the B50 as compared to the B20. No problems so far. I did a comparison between petro-diesel and B20 recently for mileage (I keep a log of every fill-up to calculate mileage) and have not seen an appreciable difference yet between either B20 or B50 and the two tanks of all petro-diesel I've run in it so far, but it's hard to compare given the variance in driving conditions. Averaging 18.8mpg normal driving, and got max 22.6mpg on a long trip via interstate at constant 73mph, so far.

Biodiesel has a superior lubricity compared to petro-diesel, thus engines last longer. CO2 and most other emissions are dramatically reduced, altho NO2 is increased, compared to petro-diesel. Importantly, there is zero gain in CO2 to the atmosphere, as the carbon comes from a renewable source; the CO2 GHG addition to the atmospheric balance is coming from fossil fuels like petro-diesel.

I live in a quite temperate climate here in Western WA, and many folks here run B100 year round. Despite that, I do alot of skiing so will be up in the more frigid mountain temps and so will stick with max B50 during the winter. Biodiesel, as that is defined by state law here (!) is prone to cold temperature clouding and eventually gels as the temp goes down. One common measure of biodiesel quality is the "cloud point temp" and "gel temp", which seems to average about 30degF for B100; of course, that temp goes down as biodiesel is blended with petro-diesel.

Many people seem to be unaware that as of June 2008, the ASTM International org released a specfication standard for B110 biodiesel (ASTM D6751). ASTM International, originally known as the American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM), is THE industry standards org for fuels (and many other things, particularly automotive), and most state and federal laws dealing with emissions require fuel compliance with ASTM standards that are called out in those laws. BTW, ASTM D975 is the fuel spec for petroleum diesel. ASTM International is a org made up of interested parties who collaborate on standards, thus automobile manufacturers, fuel producers, and distributors are primarily involved in the development of fuel standards. The ASTM D6751 biodiesel fuel standard is what diesel engine manufacturers have been waiting on in order to commence certification testing for their engines; thus, it is expected that within the next 24mos we'll see Mercedes, Chrysler, VW, and others bump up their certs from B5 to at least B20 (if not higher blends).

In a previous post, someone stated that car manufacturers will not cover a vehicle under warranty that is running biodiesel. This is NOT TRUE. Federal law in the USA prohibits car manufacturers from denying warranty service on their vehicles & engines regardless of what type of fuel is used by the owner. Manufacturers may, and almost always do, certify recommendations of fuels for their engines, typically after exhaustive testing. But since the vehicle manufacturer does not make the fuel that consumers use in their vehicles, they cannot warrant the fuel; this means that IF you have an engine failure that the manufacturer or dealer can demonstrate was caused by poor fuel quality, even when using petroleum diesel, then they can deny warranty coverage for that instance or repair. Thus, petrodiesel and biodiesel must be treated equally as far as manufacturer warranty coverage is concerned, again mandated by federal law. More info on this can be found at National Renewable Energy Laboratory and National Biodiesel Board websites. BTW, most states monitor & test the quality of all fuels that are sold to consumers. In my state, the Dept of Agriculture collects samples mainly from retail stations, but also refineries, that they test for compliance to ASTM standards in their lab, and a producer, distributor, or station must have a license to sell the fuel which must meet ASTM standards by state law. This includes gasoline, petrodiesel, biodiesel & biodiesel blends.

Most of the fuel-related failures that diesel car/truck owners have experienced is from poor quality fuel. Petrodiesel has a relatively high amount of particulate matter, as compared to gasoline and biodiesel, which has been known to clog up fuel filters or injectors. I've been told that manufacturers started putting larger fuel filters on their vehicles, but most of the diesel experts I know argue that they are not large enough yet on smaller vehicles (Mercedes, VW, Jeep). Dodge trucks (Cummins engines) also have undersized fuel filters. When the filter gets clogged, the injection pump becomes starved for fuel and can fail, which is a quite expensive repair. Upgrading the fuel filter is cheap insurance against this. I'm in the midst of investigating options for larger fuel filters for my new 2008 JGC; IF ANYONE HAS INFO/SUGGESTIONS ON THIS, PLEASE LET ME KNOW. The diesel mechanics around here seem to favor the Raycor filters, but the Raycor ones I've looked at so far (mostly for marine applications) are physically huge and I haven't found a spot to mount one in the vehicle yet.

There have been a few instances of poor quality biodiesel fuel problems occur here in my state that were caused by biodiesel being put into older petrodiesel tanks at fueling stations. The particulate matter in the petrodiesel, particularly the older diesel (ie, before ULSD), accumulates along the walls of the underground storage tank. Later, when the station chooses to begin selling a biodiesel blend, the biodiesel's solvent action begins to "clean" the petrodiesel junk off the tank walls, resulting in a surge of dirty fuel for several months. This is not a problem with a new tank, particularly with one that has held biodiesel (or the new ULSD) from the git-go. The problem can be solved by the fueling station installing a fuel filter on their tank or pumps, but some are not willing to spend the money on that until such time that they have to pay for a customer's engine repair bill (typically enforced by state law) for dispensing fuel that doesn't meet state/ASTM standards. With that said, it seems to be a rare problem at least here in my state.
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  #46  
Old 11-02-2008, 01:59 AM
eeeehaw eeeehaw is offline
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I'm looking for a performance/mileage fuel computer for my new 2008 Jeep Grand Cherokee Diesel (Mercedes 3.0L engine). You know, one of those things that you either plug into your OBDC port or otherwire wire into the vehicle harness, and can select various engine control profile programs (eg, "power", "efficienty", etc). The only one I've come across on the web so far is made in Germany and costs $1700 here in the states (not inc intallation).

Anyone know of a computer (or "chip") that'll increase mileage for this vehicle?
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  #47  
Old 11-02-2008, 03:27 AM
keelec keelec is offline
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Quote:
Originally posted by Magellan:
BTW, here's an interesting thread on what turned out to be a fuel injector problem on an 07. Not conclusive it was due to BD use, but the owner ran B99 in it.
http://www.jeepforum.com/forum/showt...=588449&page=8
Quote:
I am having trouble getting this engine to fire. I have fuel to the injectors, but not into the combustion chamber (no smoke out the tailpipe when cranking). It was originally brought to the dealer after it stalled (no MIL and no fault codes stored) and wouldn't start back up. They determined that the entire fuel system needed to be replaced (not under warranty) to the tune of $14k, on account of biodiesel being used in it.
Wow,
Without a diagnosis of what is wrong with the vehicle, the dealership wants to start replacing $14,000 worth of parts?
And it turns out to be a set of injectors (which should have been obvious from the problem description).

And, aren't these jeeps rated to run either B5 of B20? So why replace the entire fuel system if a higher percentage is ever used in the fuel?

Isn't there a requirement that a mechanic actually has a head attached to their shoulders?

Or is the only requirement to being a mechanic that one owns a big fishing boat that needs a few more payments!!!!!!
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  #48  
Old 11-02-2008, 03:46 AM
keelec keelec is offline
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Ok, so I still have my Ford Ranger... gas...

This spring gas prices hit $4.05/gal.
There is a gas station in Eugene Oregon that sells E85... (and no self service in Oregon so there is an attendant to pump the fuel).

Anyway, so when I was cruising through Eugene, I pulled in and had it Filled with E85.

The attendant looked at my '91 Ranger and asked if I really wanted E85 as it isn't factory certified... At $1.20 per gallon difference, what do you think my answer was?

A couple of tank fulls and I had pretty well flushed out my system to pretty close to true E85.

And, wouldn't you know it that dang thing started running very very rough.

Thank god I didn't take it to the dealership the Jeep person had used here in Portland :P

Anyway, I decided to replace the set of plugs and wires. The dang pickup has 8 spark plugs for 4 cylinders, and I had never gotten around to digging out the driver's side spark plugs anyway... passenger side ones are much easier to replace.

Still running rough with all new plugs and wires

I saw the great big car graveyard in sight...

But, had one last look at it. Well, somehow when I was installing the new plugs and wires I had bumped loose an injector wire. Plugged it in and the pickup has purred ever since. And, yes, I still put in E85 whenever I can find it.
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