Baking Soda + Salt + WVO

[uniquewater]

I was directed to this forum by Tim Cook from a post I made on BioD forum. It was as follows:

I'm a BioD brewer and I've been corresponding with an SVO buddy (trying to convert me) who has been addressing his Water/FFA issues by using baking soda (BS) and salt. Here is his method:
1. Add 60lbs of Salt rock (softner salt) to
a 55 gallon drum
2. Add 2- 12lb bags of BS
3. Add 50 gallons of WVO
4. Mix well and heat to about 150F
5. Within 24 hours water will settle to the
bottom with "crud" , which is drained off.
6. Add more BS and salt (if need) mix and
repeat step 5. and filter WVO.

He tells me this clears up the nastiest WVO within 3 days. He does not do any titration of FFA so I'm not sure what FFA numbers are before or after. He told me I can keep wasting my time titrating, brewing, washing, etc. While he drives away on SVO. (Smart a** )
I'm going to try this on small scale with some nasty watered down WVO and see what happens.

Anyone tried this yet?? I know the FFA wouldn't be a problem for you guys, but has anyone used the Salt to dewater?

[uniquewater]

I was directed to this forum by Tim Cook from a post I made on BioD forum. It was as follows:

I'm a BioD brewer and I've been corresponding with an SVO buddy (trying to convert me) who has been addressing his Water/FFA issues by using baking soda (BS) and salt. Here is his method:
1. Add 60lbs of Salt rock (softner salt) to
a 55 gallon drum
2. Add 2- 12lb bags of BS
3. Add 50 gallons of WVO
4. Mix well and heat to about 150F
5. Within 24 hours water will settle to the
bottom with "crud" , which is drained off.
6. Add more BS and salt (if need) mix and
repeat step 5. and filter WVO.

He tells me this clears up the nastiest WVO within 3 days. He does not do any titration of FFA so I'm not sure what FFA numbers are before or after. He told me I can keep wasting my time titrating, brewing, washing, etc. While he drives away on SVO. (Smart a** )
I'm going to try this on small scale with some nasty watered down WVO and see what happens.

Anyone tried this yet?? I know the FFA wouldn't be a problem for you guys, but has anyone used the Salt to dewater?

[danalinscott]

You should be aware that this willnot remove suspended water and may make the suspended water that remains very corrosive.

[uniquewater]

Like I said I haven't tried this myself, but he told me he does this process on ALL his WVO and has done several "water" tests using the frypan method. He is getting about 10% water extracted from the volume of WVO added to the salt/BS.

I understand where your coming from about corrosion/saltwater, but the salt is "drawing" the water out of solution to the bottom of the barrel. No water in WVO.

Have you tried this?

I'm going to give it a shot this weekend on a 1 Liter scale. I will be mixing an emulsion of water with the WVO to see how quick it draws it out compared to settling.

BTW. The WVO is also filtered before salt and before use

[Todd T]

I'm currently using baking soda and am about to add a salt step to my oil treatment.

I find the baking soda does a great job of clearing up some marginal oils. The percentages listed are a bit high and could be costly even when you buy baking soda in 50 bags like I do. One percent by weight or lower is pretty good. That means 20# or less per 250 gallon tote.

After the gunk has settled to the bottom, the oil is pretty clear. I'm going to pump that through a salt column made out of a 4" pvc pipe filled with softener salt and into a 55 gallon drum for heating. This is what Brian Miller aka Forrest Gump has suggested and he has the most experience at this.

Once heated, the oil will be pumped through a series of washable T-screens down to 30 micron and then through cartridge filters down to 1 micron. This is done at a very slow rate using a 1/4" rotary gear pump at a slow speed.

Once filtered, the oil is allowed to settle in an insulated tank which drops out the water.

I'm not concerned about corrosivity. The baking soda is very slightly alkaline and should not pose a corrosion issue. The salt is fairly reactive but the water will solubalize the salt and both will be removed in the settling process. I don't see how we can have any salt present in the oil if it has been filtered and de-watered.

Since going to this method my filter life has been extended considerably.

Todd

[rkpatt]

The use of salt still causes some concern about corrosion for me . What about using silical gell ( or that special kitty litter in that PVC pipe column instead ?

[danalinscott]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> The salt is fairly reactive but the water will solubalize the salt and both will be removed in the settling process. I don't see how we can have any salt present in the oil if it has been filtered and de-watered. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

"IF all the suspended water is removed you are correct. That however is the "sticky point.

[darkmoebius]

Don't know if everyone has already seen this site, Survival Unlimited(I know, a little whacky name), but they have a decent layman's explanation of the salt-adding process along with a couple of helpful pictures.

I have no idea how accurate the information is or how good the products sold on this site, but they do sell biodiesel/WVO treatment supplies. Hopefully Dana or some other qualified person can chime in with their thoughts.



Seperation Page
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">The beaker on the right was once a milky / cloudy looking mess resembling the beaker on the left. After salt was added, it split into oil and water in just seconds!** This also requires the addition of something to thoroughly and vigorously mix the salt in.

(**The oils in this cup where preheated to 115 F. and the reaction was fantastic!!! Nice clear oil even when it dropped down to room temperature again.)

This can be accomplished in production oil processing by simply having an ample supply of salt pellets in the bottom of the primary mixing tank.

Oil will always float on top so it is easy to see if you went overboard. After many months a milky looking layer of glycerin's and fatty acids will form in between the water and oil separation layers. This must also be drained off
periodically. We call this layer "GUNK" and this is what GUNK layer looks like up close.

What is "GUNK" - Glycerin groups, fatty acids, saponified oils and fats </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Do not worry about salt getting into the oil. The dual-pole resin will scrub and remove all traces of salt and other contaminants since it pulls in both negatively AND positively polarized molecules. Clean oil is neutral and thus has no polarizing charge and easily passes through the Dual-pole resin bed.

<span class="ev_code_RED">HINT: For very 20 degree F. increase of heat the speed of any chemical reaction doubles exponentially! If your oils are preheated to 115 F. your fuel reaction will be instantaneous!</span> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


For water absorption, they sell something called Acusorb Beads(1/3 down page) which supposedly abosrb 25% of their own weight in water. The beads can be regenerated hundreds of times by baking them otudoors at 325 to 350 degrees.



<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> *30 lbs of beads is enough to process 5000 gallons of waste oil before regeneration is required assuming the oil is not extremely contaminated*

Since Acusorb beads can be reused approximately 200 times. A 30 lb. container (5-gallon pail) is capable of processing over 1,000,000 gallons of oil in its life time (assuming average restaurant grade deep frying oil) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, those beads cost a whopping $300. I suppose the cost might be justifiable over their lifetime use. Especialy for those who do not have a lot of time and/or room to settle out large quantities of oil.

[uniquewater]

Excellent pics!
I would say scratch the beads for me. I like to keep this as cheap as possible.

Todd- I thought the salt/BS was high, but I am assured the higher the amount the quicker the separation occurs, but I haven't tried it yet. I'm anxious to try it out this weekend.

[rkpatt]

Those beads are way to pricey - look here http://www.agmcontainer.com/desiccan...kdesiccant.htm

Cheap consumer sources of silica gel to pack the colunm with might be this cat litter - Fresh Step Crystals, Litter Pearls . And don't forget tyou could regenerate it by driving off the moisture in an oven .

[darkmoebius]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by uniquewater:I would say scratch the beads for me. I like to keep this as cheap as possible. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree, besides I don't think my neighbors would approve of the regeneration process - semi-noxious smoke for 3-4 hours at a time.

But, maybe we should explore some of the chemical qualities of the beads:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">This inorganic Polymer contains Silver and Zinc chlorides and nitrates creating powerful hydrous attraction </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Perhaps, adding compounds will help aid the dewatering process.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Todd- I thought the salt/BS was high, but I am assured the higher the amount the quicker the separation occurs </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can I suggest an experiment? Try it with just the salt thoroughly mixed in(as the pictures show)in a clear glass and at the same time salt/BS in another(using Todd's ratio) to compare results over the 3 days.

Even better use a third glass with just salt, let it seperate for 1 or 2 days, then use a tube and funnel to slowly add BS dissolved in water directly to the settled water layer on the bottom. Use the hose to bypass the oil layer on top without mixing.

The reason for the 3rd jug is...I'm wondering if the "soap" formed at the bottom will act like the Acusorb Beads or a sponge and more effectively draw water towards the bottom.

Actually, I guess I need to go hit a surplus science or medical supply this weekend for glass beakers, etc. and get down to some experimenting, myself.

[uniquewater]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by rkpatt:
Those beads are way to pricey - look here http://www.agmcontainer.com/desiccan...kdesiccant.htm

Cheap consumer sources of silica gel to pack the colunm with might be this cat litter - Fresh Step Crystals, Litter Pearls . And don't forget tyou could regenerate it by driving off the moisture in an oven . </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

rkpatt- Are you using the dessicants? If yes, which ones are you using? How well does the oil flow through?

[rkpatt]

uniquewater - My current oil supply is pretty good ( Asian noodle house with golden oil in my barrel ) so I don't do it . I simply bag filter and do the heated dewatering. However that supply is not enough for me anymore so I anticipate doing this in the near future because I may be resorting to dumpster diving .

[EuDeMan]

in my experience, the most effective 'hydrous attractor' is - WATER!
when you heat-settle-dewater for a LONG time (months) you get free water at the bottom of your tank under a 'gradient' (Dana term) of water-rich VO
I don't know if the gradient is necessary to dewater (probably), and I have never tried simply adding water to my tank to accellerate dewatering, but I do know that the most effective dewatering I have observed happens in tanks with free watre at the bottom
to dewater - use water

as far as baking soda and salt go - in my opinion they are excellent for neutralizing acidic oils - and acidic oils ARE worrisome to automobiles - leaks/spills/drips DO corrode rubber/plastics, and in general un-neutralized oil seems to wear more heavily on the vehicle than neutralized WVO

to neutralize, BRINE WASH
mix baking soda with water, add to oil, agitate, settle
drain off water/crud
(your oil will NOT be dewatered - it'll have more water in it - but it will be neutral and it will be pre-filtered)
then run through your filters and heat/settle/dewater
this 2-step process gives you oil that lasts much longer, is neutral and dry, easier on your filters, better for your car

again, in my experience, salt and BS and accusorb do not dewater best and are a lot more expensive than what does - plain ol' water

[gozapper]

Has anyone tried chlorine or bleach in place of salt?

gozapper
Valley Center Ks.
81 300SD that has seen too much Chorine!

[uniquewater]

Experiment #1 is complete.
I made a nasty water emulsion from my WVO and placed in 4 glasses.
#1- WVO emulsion only
#2- Salt with WVO emulsion
#3- Baking soda with WVO emul.
#4- Salt/Baking soda with WVO emul.

Glass #! and #2 were similar in appearance, with milky emulsion on top and water on bottom. Glass #1 had distinct water droplets in WVO, but #2 was only "milky" without droplets.
Glass #3 and #4 were also similar but the WVO layer on top was NOT milky looking but a dark color similar to the original WVO prior to adding water.
Glass #4 however was THE clearest when held upto the sunlight.

So the winner in this experiment is Salt/BS.

My current experiment involves BS mixed with WVO and 3 types of salt (in separate glasses)
NaCl, sodium sulfate, magnesium sulfate. I will also be trying Calcium chloride later.
I'll keep you informed.

[danalinscott]

Salt brine is well known for its ability to "break emulsions" but doing so does not prove salts ability to remove suspended (microdroplets of) water. Assuming it does is a mistake several have made previously ..and later regretted.

[EuDeMan]

yeah, to reiterate:
brine wash to netralize/pre-filter, heat-settle to dewater

[imported_TurboHans]

It's been a 'little' while...any updates?

Thanks, Hans

[Jram]

heres something i threw together with BS (no salt). i dont run fat in the winter and this was in the bottom part of a cubie that had settled for one week. i just wanted to see if BS would help the fat settle faster. the ones with BS look opaque and im not sure why this is, but maybe its the BS in suspended water in the oil.

[Jram]

added BS and water

[Jram]

about 4 days later

[Jram]

forgot the second pic.

[68fish]

That's some nasty looking WVO! What's your usable net from a cubie?

[Jram]

as i said the oil is from the bottom of a settled cubie, so it is mostly fat. a lot of clear oil comes off of the top of the cubie first (90%).