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GrahamLaming
01-21-2007, 07:57 PM
I'm building a new processor to bring together all the advantages of the GL 1 day process.

It is a closed-system fume-free processor which removes the need for water washing, reduces pollution, eliminates emulsions, recovers methanol which would otherwise have been washed down the drain, and reduces oxidation by working with a limited volume of air, or if preferred, inert gas such as CO2 or Nitrogen.

Anyway, a key component in this processor is a vacuum venturi. The processor uses 2 of these.

I've spent a fair amount of time getting the vacuum venturi part right, so thought it may be of general interest. The venturis I've come across commercially aren't ideal for our plumbing or our chemicals.

This one is well suited because it uses standard plumbing parts. And that means cheap, too.

It is handy for dosing the methanol, because you can have the methoxide tank low down in the system - no need to rely on gravity alone.

I have placed the venturi in the outlet of the pump. (I know, I can hear the groans of disapproval now!). This gives excellent mixing, however, and I get good conversion. The advantage of having the meth feed on the outlet of the pump is that the pump doesn't cavitate any more if air is drawn in, or if the methanol vapourises under the reduced pressure on the inlet of the pump. The venturi seems to mix well, of its own accord.

Here's the venturi description. (http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi.htm)

I should have the new processor plans ready to publish in the next week or so. Still a few bugs to iron out.

Legal Eagle
01-21-2007, 08:26 PM
Graham;
I don't know or understand the first thing about this but it looks brilliant. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
If you ever get over to this side of the pond we'll have to hook up over a pint.

rotorjunky
01-21-2007, 09:43 PM
Hey Graham,
Thats a very clever way to make a venturi! Simple, cheap, no machine tools. My sincere compliments.

Chris

Twenty4Seven
01-21-2007, 10:04 PM
Brilliant work yet again Graham! Thanks for sharing.

Nick

RickDaTech
01-21-2007, 10:08 PM
Graham,

That's a great way to make a venturi! Do you have a needle valve on it?

Keep those briliant ideas flowing Sir Graham!

Murphy
01-21-2007, 11:03 PM
Pretty slick there.

Home engineering things like that is almost as much art as it is science.

Have you measured or estimated its performance?

TurbinePowered
01-22-2007, 12:39 AM
Excellent design! Nice and simple, easy to follow, and even fairly elegant in its simplicity.

What kind of flow rate was this designed to accomodate/best work with? Think they would work with some backpressure on the pump, like say connected to a static mixer?

troy
01-22-2007, 02:34 PM
Excellent work Graham!

Yes, all of those previous superlatives apply.

Simple
Elegant
Effective
Well thought out
Imaginative use of commom materials
Fantastic instructions and illustrations

Please carry on.

troy

GrahamLaming
01-22-2007, 05:03 PM
Hi Folks,

I wouldn't go so far as to say it's excellent - it is far from efficient, and needs a fair through flow to get vacuum going, but it is a start and can certainly be refined for better performance.

Its biggest weakness is its abrupt change in diameter. It is very short. Make the bevel in and out as smooth as you can.

Really it should be a very gradual, smooth narrowing to the inlet, and a gradual, smooth narrowing to the outlet.

Ensure the flow into it comes from a fairly straight run of pipe - don't mount it just before an elbow, that seems to affect it - probably turbulence. And don't have any air bubbles flowing in the upstream end (inlet) - that seems to upset its performance too.

Being so short, it probably wastes a lot of power creating turbulence downstream. That's probably why it mixes the methanol in quite well.

If anyone can figure out a way to get around a 10 degree taper on the inlet and outlet, it would work much better.

I've been whittling away at some dowel rods to make 10 degree tapered spears - I plan to jam a spear into a section of copper pipe and pour solder in to create the taper. I think that should transform the performance.

Twenty4Seven
01-22-2007, 05:31 PM
Hi Graham

You say in your first message that the venturi produces sufficient vacuum to draw methanol from the carboy. We know that slower is better when feeding in the meth and if you are correct about the turbulance, that's a good thing, no?. I'm not going to steal your thunder by revealing how you are going to use the other venturi but there too, we are only looking for a small vacuum aren't we?

Regarding the taper, how about filling up the fitting with solder completely and using a spearpoint bit such as is used to drill glass and ceramic tiles? They have a tapered profile and should cope with soft solder ok.

Cheers

Nick

GrahamLaming
01-22-2007, 07:23 PM
Hi Nick,

Do you know what diameter they go up to? I'm not familiar with those at all, but a fine taper drill with 20mm final diameter would be good.

I recon the taper needs to be around 70mm long for best efficiency, going from 20mm diameter down to 12mm diameter.

That seems to make it a lot less sensitive to what is upstream or downstream of the venturi.

I'm using plasticine to fashion the taper , using a length of 10mm dowel to make it conical down the tube - keeping one end still (the narrow end) and moving the other end around to displace the plasticine into a hollow cone inside the tube, which is 75mm long.

Not very BD resistant, but my 8 year old son and I are testing it by pumping water around a bucket, through a 10 foot length of 22mm pipe, using a grundfos pump. It is FREEZING cold outside, so the plasticine is pretty much solid. We've had enough, come in for a hot cuppa.

But yes, even as it stands, it does the job reasonably well, especially for the vapour recirculation.

agroot
01-22-2007, 10:32 PM
Try a #1 or #2 Morse Taper hand finishing reamer.
#1 0.5170" to 0.3674" in 3"
#2 0.7444" to 0.5696" in 3.5"

Spiral flute taper reamers should also work. There are many sizes available.

You can also use a 1 X 3/4 X 3/4 tee and put a piece of steel pipe cut at a 45° angle in the branch. The large opening goes to the pump inlet, as does the opening in the steel pipe.

Twenty4Seven
01-22-2007, 11:56 PM
Hi Graham

I can't find a spear point drill larger than 13mm so that's no good. I think agroot is right - a tapered reamer is the way to go. This one (http://www.rs-components.co.uk/1/673593818-Helical-tapered-reamer22mm-dia-x184mm-L.html) is the right size I think. Also consider this hand reamer (http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/searchBrowseAction.do?D=hand%20reamer&Nr=AND%28avl%3auk%2csearchDiscon_uk%3aN%29&Ntk=I18NAll&Nty=1&Ntt=hand%20reamer&N=0&name=SiteStandard&forwardingPage=line&R=0600688&callingPage=/jsp/search/search.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0149362604.1169513797@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccfaddjmdiemdlcefeceeldgkidhgg.0&cacheID=ukie)

Cheers

Nick

agroot
01-23-2007, 12:30 AM
Go with a hand reamer, as the solder is a very soft material. You can use a piece of pipe as a collar to limit the insertion, and keep it centered.

GrahamLaming
01-23-2007, 08:09 AM
Many thanks for those suggestions - they look ideal.

I've found another way to generate suction from fluid flow, which I've started to build into the same style of Tee fitting. Should be similarly easy to achieve with average home tools, and I suspect may be more suited to the methoxide injection task, than the venturi.

I'll compare performance of the two systems over the next week or so and post what I find.

canolafunola
01-23-2007, 02:08 PM
Don't know if it's the right taper or the right size but woodworkers use a pointed tapered drill for screw holes in various sies from #4 to #10. Or grind your own using a worn out drill bit with a drill and grinder.

Originally posted by Twenty4Seven:
Hi Graham

I can't find a spear point drill larger than 13mm so that's no good. I think agroot is right - a tapered reamer is the way to go. This one (http://www.rs-components.co.uk/1/673593818-Helical-tapered-reamer22mm-dia-x184mm-L.html) is the right size I think. Also consider this hand reamer (http://rswww.com/cgi-bin/bv/rswww/searchBrowseAction.do?D=hand%20reamer&Nr=AND%28avl%3auk%2csearchDiscon_uk%3aN%29&Ntk=I18NAll&Nty=1&Ntt=hand%20reamer&N=0&name=SiteStandard&forwardingPage=line&R=0600688&callingPage=/jsp/search/search.jsp&BV_SessionID=@@@@0149362604.1169513797@@@@&BV_EngineID=cccfaddjmdiemdlcefeceeldgkidhgg.0&cacheID=ukie)

Cheers

Nick

Legal Eagle
01-23-2007, 09:27 PM
I had a thought (it happens). What if you were to take a piece of cold roll and drill a tappered hole into the end in the diameter that is required and use that as a sleave inside the pipe? Do the same for the other side. There's got to be a drill bit that can tapper right ? I got drill files that taper so there's got to be a bit out there. My 1/2 pennie's worth :-)

agroot
01-24-2007, 01:42 AM
Chuckle chuckle...

You're a better DIY'er than I, if you can make this with hand tools and a drill press in CRS.

I'd recommend doing it on a lathe. If you don't have access, give the job to a machine shop.

Rick G
01-25-2007, 01:00 AM
Does anyone have or know where the "rule of thumb" guidelines for venturi design are available? For example if you want "such & such" vacuum at "such & such" flow what size diameter orifices are required. You know, engineering design parameters?

Joe_M
01-25-2007, 11:33 AM
From Wikipedia:
"Venturi Tubes
The simplest apparatus, is a tubular setup known as a Venturi tube or simply a venturi. Fluid flows through a length of pipe of varying diameter. To avoid undue drag, a venturi tube typically has an entry cone of 30 degrees and an exit cone of 5 degrees.
A venturi can also be used to mix a fluid with air. If a pump forces the fluid through a tube connected to a system consisting of a venturi to increase the water speed (the diameter decreases), a short piece of tube with a small hole in it, and last a venturi that decreases speed (so the pipe gets wider again), air will be sucked in through the small hole because of changes in pressure. At the end of the system, a mixture of fluid and air will appear.
Orifice plate
Venturi tubes are more expensive to construct than a simple orifice plate which uses the same principle as a tubular scheme, but the orifice plate causes significantly more permanent energy loss and is less accurate."

The diagrams from Graham would be more along the lines of a orifice plate. HTH http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

GrahamLaming
01-25-2007, 02:08 PM
Hi Joe,

The orifice plate is similar, but you measure the pressure difference on each SIDE of the plate, rather than the method used in a venturi, where your vacuum port is within the high velocity stream, within the restriction iself.

It's the venturi effect which causes the suction in this case.

My design is crude enough to be a sort of hybrid, because it doesn't offer the smooth flow narrowing gradient of an efficient venturi.

Both use the same basic Bernoulli principal.

As to the formulas, there is a wide variety of venturi designs, no one formula will conveniently suit all design requirements.

Some venturis are intended to act as flow meters, whereby you measure the pressure difference and can determine flow rate from that. This means there is no net flow into or out of the vacuum port. It is simply a static pressure.

The venturi vacuum pump, on the other hand, expects flow to be drawn in thru the vacuum port and this flow volume is added to the total flow.

This makes the design somewhat different, as you may want to design for maximum suction, or for minimum flow restriction, or a combination of suction level and flow restriction values.

It also depends what you are sucking thru the vacuum port.

A liquid is incompressible, so will affect the output throat angle differently to a gas. The important factor here is the ratio of prime flow to vacuum inlet flow.

You can have a liquid or a gas as the main flow medium causing the vacuum, and you can suck in a liquid or a gas. You can even suck in a powder mixed with a gas.

Different densities of materials cause different turbulences also, which again affects the calculations.

The inlet on a static venturi often has a cone angle twice the outlet cone angle, but for a mixing venturi, or a venturi vacuum pump, the inlet and outlet throat angles can be quite similar.

producer
01-25-2007, 02:30 PM
A wealth of information concerning eductors, injectors, and pumps.

http://www.penberthy-online.com/jet.asp

Ryan P.
01-25-2007, 08:44 PM
Some venturis are intended to act as flow meters, whereby you measure the pressure difference and can determine flow rate from that. This means there is no net flow into or out of the vacuum port. It is simply a static pressure.

So with an accurate enough vacuum gauge, and some calibration, this sort of venturi of yours could be made into a flow rate meter? And with a little electronic manipulation, a cheap flow volume meter? Hmmmm....

Mack
01-25-2007, 11:09 PM
I have made Venturis for antique Motorcycles.
They start with a radius and taper down (get larger). I don't know if something like that would work the same with two liquids.

GrahamLaming
01-26-2007, 07:09 AM
Hi Ryan and Mack

If you add a U-tube to the venturi, it makes a great flowmeter. Very common in industry - simple and therefore fairly reliable.

Here's how you would arrange the venturi as a simple flow meter...

http://www.london-electronics.com/bd/venturi/flowmeter.gif

You can isolate the u-tube liquid from the process liquid by using an air loop of tubing going up, then down to the liquid u-tube.

You would probably want a larger diameter orifice if you're using the venturi as a flowmeter, rather than a pump, to reduce the vacuum - you'd not want to draw the u-tube liquid up into the process.

You could fit a differential pressure sensor to the tubes if you wanted an electronic signal, but the response is not at all linear - you'd need to linearize it. This is also true for the markings against the u-tube.

The curve crudely approximates to a square-law, so if you double the flow rate, you get roughly 4 times the pressure difference. Or, if you see a doubling in pressure, you know your flow has increased by around 41%, because the square root of 2 is around 1.41

GrahamLaming
01-26-2007, 07:28 AM
Hi Rick G

This site has some handy calculators for venturi
performance ...

http://www.pipeflowcalculations.com/venturi/index.htm

Hope that helps,

GrahamLaming
01-28-2007, 06:42 PM
Made some changes to the venturi - big performance leap. See 1st post for link.

Sucks up methoxide and mixes it very nicely into the oil.

Venturi is on the outlet of the pump, just before the pipe enters the processor.

New processor plans coming soon...

GrahamLaming
03-13-2007, 09:58 PM
A few new ideas near the end of page, showing how to make a venturi by bashing copper pipe.

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi.htm


This is simple to make, with just 2 components soldered together, and metal bashing copper is a lot easier than you might think! I tried it for the 1st time last night and have 2 of my best performing venturis to show for it.

Give it a try!

cstoker
03-14-2007, 02:19 AM
Your forged copper venturi looks nice. It may go faster if you anneal it every three or four passes around with the hammer. Just crank up your torch and heat the copper till it is glowing a dull red heat, or at least until it has a full dark oxide color and then quench in water. Should be much softer and will be less likely to crack as your swaging down progresses.

BTW I forged myself a nice one of 1" steel pipe this weekend and have been plumbing it into my reactor. Anxious to try your new methods out.

Altitude
03-14-2007, 02:59 AM
GL,

Now I'm really impressed!!

Question -- is copper a suitable material for BD processors -- everyone seems to be recommending use of black iron and brass valves (unless you are Bill Gates and can afford stainless http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)?

Thanks,
Kurt

Raften
03-14-2007, 04:53 AM
A reamer is designed to remove small amounts of material, same goes for a tapered reamer, they are not designed to hog out material. You can drill a tapered hole by step drilling and finishing up with a tapered reamer but you need to do the steps in very small increments. Easier if you use a very soft material. You need a tapered hole, generate it on a lathe.

GrahamLaming
03-14-2007, 10:09 AM
Hi cstoker,

Thanks, good idea, I'll give annealing a try this evening, let you know how it goes. Even without it, the work is reasonably easy and a ding in the wrong place doesn't make too much of a dent http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-------------------

Hi Kurt,

If you can make it all in steel, great.

My entire system is copper, including the reactor tank, and has done many a batch without problems. It may affect shelf life, but I use my biodiesel pretty soon after it's made.

However, steel would be better.

If just the venturi is made in copper, I don't think you'll have any problems at all.

Regards,

imported_jackmac
03-14-2007, 07:01 PM
Graham, I have a program that calculates pressure drop on venturis, if you will give me the diameter of the entering port and the restriction diameter and degrees of taper, whether 15* or 30*. I follow your threads and they are quite informative and helpful. jack

Lu47Dan
03-15-2007, 07:09 PM
Graham , Interesting thread , will try this on my reactor . A little information for you . When attaching one copper tube to another solder is not strong enough ,can be snapped off with little force , silver solder is what should be used . It takes more heat to silver solder than to soft solder . and if you can a lip around the hole you solder the tube into will make the joint stronger also . I will post some instructions on how to anneal the tube and make the lip tonight . Dan

GrahamLaming
03-15-2007, 08:05 PM
Hi jacmac

That's a nice offer!

Here's a rough guess at the dimensions and angles, should be pretty close...

Assume a flow rate of 40 litres per minute.

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi_22mm_rough_dimensions.gif


------------------------

Hi Lu47Dan,

Thanks, yes, you're right, simple plumbing solder is risky with a butt joint like that.

I'm working on a wrap-around joint for the next prototype, and plan to use silver solder. I'm making a simple blowpipe to direct the flame more precisely than my current wide blast.

I tried annealing some pipe last night, but made a big mess of the job. The copper was so soft, I really made a dreadful shape. And the compression fitting I tried wouldn't hold - I need to be more precise on which parts I anneal and which parts I leave solid. A damp cloth around the ends would probably do. All part of the fun of learning a new trick.

Looking forward to your info on annealing and creating a more sturdy joint.

Lu47Dan
03-16-2007, 04:31 AM
Graham , the wet rag will keep the heat from migrating and making the copper soft too far away . Another way to handle it is to use couplings and two stub pieces of tube soldered on to your venturi or use two unions . I am going to put the information on silver soldering over on the biodiesel pictures site , I will come back and place a link to it . Dan

Lu47Dan
03-16-2007, 05:31 AM
Graham here is the Link (http://biodieselpictures.com/viewtopic.php?p=682#682) to the thread on silver soldering and making a "pulled" tee . Hope you find it interesting . Dan

GrahamLaming
03-16-2007, 08:01 AM
Hi Dan,

Many thanks for that! How would you go about re-hardening the copper? After annealing, I found the copper extremely soft, and would want to re-harden it somehow, for durability.

The only way I know to re-harden copper is to beat it, but if I'm already at the shape I want, what do I do?

Thanks again,

cstoker
03-16-2007, 01:36 PM
You're right Graham, there's no easy way to re-harden the copper other than cold-working it. It will get hard fairly quickly (10 to 20 cycles of gentle bending back & forth).

Ryan P.
03-16-2007, 03:25 PM
ultrasonic hardening?

http://snipurl.com/1d673

many hits, low amplitude.

(I might use one of these in a glycerine fired heater...hee-hee!)

Ant
03-20-2007, 03:34 PM
Jackmac. Could you use your program to define a venturi that would mix oil and methoxide proportionally in the correct ratio for making bio continously?

Is the program a small thing that could be emailed?

GrahamLaming
03-20-2007, 04:54 PM
Hi Ant,

Take a peek here ...

http://javaboutique.internet.com/Venturi/


A cavitating venturi can automatically limit flow through itself. As it cavitates, it impedes further flow, so the pressure rises and cavitation ceases, so flow increases, so cavitation commences etc. I get a definite whistling in the venturi as the methanol level rises, but I'm not sure how we'd use the effect to dose accurately. It is very temperature sensitive.

Ant
03-21-2007, 09:16 PM
I was thinking more of sizing the thing so that at a given flow rate the suction pulled just the right amount of methoxide in. small side port or something.

imported_jackmac
03-24-2007, 04:45 PM
Originally posted by Ant:
I was thinking more of sizing the thing so that at a given flow rate the suction pulled just the right amount of methoxide in. small side port or something.
Ant, I bought the program and it has somewhat limited capabilities. you can find it at www.pressure-drop.com (http://www.pressure-drop.com) and I believe they have a free demo that you can use. The database includes many chemicals and gasses, none of which we use in our process. Graham is correct that many of these are very temperature dependent, especially aqueous NaOH which freezes at something near 56F. I have picked up a few dosing meters called pulsafeeder, where I was intending to calibrate for the methoxide. I would like to begin with the methanol as that viscosity seems fairly stable across ambiant temps here in Georgia. The pulsafeeder could remove handling of the methanol in preparing the methoxide. Calibration is done with stroke length and frequency, Do you suppose that adequate mixing of the two chemical could be accomplished in the venturi, vs premixing in the carboy? Perhaps you or Graham has an opinion on this which would aid in taking the health risks a bit further out of the equation. Thanks for your ongoing contributions to this forum. A lot of us are learning a great deal from guys like you, Graham, McGuyver, and others.

imported_jackmac
03-24-2007, 05:19 PM
Originally posted by GrahamLaming:
Hi jacmac

That's a nice offer!

Here's a rough guess at the dimensions and angles, should be pretty close...

Assume a flow rate of 40 litres per minute.

http://www.london-electronics.com/bd/venturi/venturi_22mm_rough_dimensions.gif
Graham, I do not have the viscosity nor the density for WVO. However, for water at 40C with 22mm entry through an 8mm orifice at 40 liters/minute, the pressure drop is 2.164psi. If any of the values need to be adjusted, pls advise. Thanks for all you do to further the cause.

------------------------

Hi Lu47Dan,

Thanks, yes, you're right, simple plumbing solder is risky with a butt joint like that.

I'm working on a wrap-around joint for the next prototype, and plan to use silver solder. I'm making a simple blowpipe to direct the flame more precisely than my current wide blast.

I tried annealing some pipe last night, but made a big mess of the job. The copper was so soft, I really made a dreadful shape. And the compression fitting I tried wouldn't hold - I need to be more precise on which parts I anneal and which parts I leave solid. A damp cloth around the ends would probably do. All part of the fun of learning a new trick.

Looking forward to your info on annealing and creating a more sturdy joint.

Dave Calkins
03-24-2007, 07:46 PM
This came from the Making Biodiesel section, but more approriate here. I have modified my response from the "Making Biodiesel" response.



Congratulations on a very tidy job - I wish I had the knack. My kitchen table is covered in the world's supply of reducers, T pieces and various offcuts of pipe as I try to figure a way to make a venturi without recourse to "copper bashing"

Cheers

Nick

Since Graham originally posted this excellent design, I started reading up on venturi valves and pumps. Many of the commercially available venturi pumps have the main line pump's fluid intake restriction coming out in the middle of the pipe with the incoming vaccum line coming in and surrounding the incoming jet. What about putting a funnel like restriction into the ends of the tee which would allow the incoming vaccum line to surround the jet. That might allow for better mixing and may create a higher vaccum.

Stainless steel cake decorating tips might be a good item to use to easily create this valve for a number of reasons.

<UL TYPE=SQUARE> <LI>They are stainless steel. <LI>Being thin walled metal, they could be easily modified by grinding or filing. <LI>They could be shortened up to fit properly in the valve.<LI>They have different sized openings which, depending on the size of your pump, may be benificial <LI>They even have different shaped ends which may or may not enhance mixing. The teeth might allow the fluid to mix without cavitating. [/list]

I thought that this design, see picture below, would be even more effective in its ability to pull a vacuum. Plus it pulls the liquid or air all the way around the opening so it mixes from all sides of the oil stream. The teeth of the cake tip might further break the methoxide into streamlets that might mix even better and fast with the oil.

Also I think this design would be easier and take less time to build than hammering out a piece of copper and may even be faster to make than Graham's first version. I do like the shape of Grahams latest creation. It has a great look to it and its shape is built more like an actual venturi.

I haven't built this yet, so I don't know how easy it would be to pre-tin and solder the stainless tip to the brass tee, but that may not even be necessary. A flaired type tee fitting might allow you to just compress the tip into place with no soldering needed at all. I would probably solder it anyways, just so that there were no pockets for debrea or water to hide in and it would create a smoother flow of air and liquid. I would solder B first, placing rings of solder around the tip. Then drill out the opening, if necessary, so that tip A will fit into the opening with proper clearances (what-ever they might be). Then with rings of solder around tip A, solder that tip into place as well. I would probably try the teeth on tip A to see if that would enable the material to mix better / quicker.

If the cake tips don't work for you or if you can't find them, there are also many different copper plumbing fittings which might be used as well. The copper flair cap I believe comes in larger sizes so that it may work better for those running larger lines. See pictures below. The size of the hole in the end of the flaired cap could be drilled to your specs depending on your line and pump sizes. Also, copper is very easy to solder into place. The fitting could easily be pre-tinned with solder which would make the internal attachment fast and easy. Again, a flaired tee fitting may make soldering unnecessary.

I did a quick web search and found several copper fittings that might work or which if used in combination with each other, might make constructing the valve easier. The copper gasket when combined with the flaired cap for example.

See drawings / pictures.
http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/4/1/2/4121087291/4121087291_Home_Made_Venturi.JPG?ts=4626030A&key=6C13EEBCF461D7D8B2855DDD53D75197&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbiodiesel.infopop.cc%2Feve%2 Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F5221088291%2FHome_Made_Ven turi.JPG

I am guessing that you probably would not even need to have constriction B for the venturi to work, but having B in place would most likely get a better mix and a stonger vacuum. This is because it would enable the mixture to Flash and mix slower into more oil because of the slower rise in its pressure back to the pipes normal operating diameter; but I'm guessing it would likely work fine without it.

Both types of fittings could be modified easily, the cake tip, because it is so thin, and the copper, because it is so soft, could each be filed, or ground down so that they could be fitted easily into the tee.

I have used cake decorating tips a few times for for several things in the construction industry, my line of work, which had nothing to do with decorating cakes. Having kids, I have decorated my share of cakes with them as well.


These are just a few of the many different shapes of cake decorating tips that are available.

http://www.pastrysampler.com/Images/787.jpg

My guess is that the third one from the left, the simple funnel would work well, but I would probably try the one with teeth as well. Tips are cheap, 50 - 80 cents a piece, and a different shape may help speed the mixing process. The wrong shape might just create a lot of cavitation. But at 80 cents a piece, it couldn't hurt to play, I mean experiment.

One other thought, if the size of the valve restricts the flow too much, what about putting a second venturi in line, which would help those of you that are running larger pumps and larger intake lines.

Sorry if this feels teachy, (is that a word?) I taught high school and college kids for many years.

Dave Calkins
03-26-2007, 03:18 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dave Calkins:

These are just a few of the many different shapes of cake decorating tips that are available.

The tips are seamless, made of stainless steel and come in a wide variety of openings. Some of the shapes would promote a great deal of mixing. Being stainless they should be plenty rigid, especially if backed by solder. Many of them have a flange on the top edge which could make it easy to fit into the right sized tee. The opening size goes up to 11/16 of an inch.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/6/8/1/6811089291/6811089291_CakeTips.JPG?ts=46260440&key=20C33E19CFC94730BE28E83EFD84D5B5&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbiodiesel.infopop.cc%2Feve%2 Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F7811089291%2FCakeTips.JPG

joat101
04-05-2007, 06:43 PM
Hello,

Couple of items of interest...

First, isn't it "bad" to have copper in contact with the methoxide and oil mix? I read somewhere that galvanized pipe and copper will react with the mix.

second, instead of making a venturi and spending all that time, wouldn't it be easier to use a prefab one like this for about $20.00?
http://homeharvest.com/waterfertilizerinjectors.htm

GrahamLaming
04-05-2007, 07:54 PM
Hi Joat101

That looks neat - thanks for the info!

Copper is not ideal if you want to store fuel for a long time. But my entire system is copper, including the reactor, and I get good fuel from it, and it get's used pretty soon after it's made.

ReM
04-05-2007, 08:48 PM
Hey Graham--

Originally posted by GrahamLaming:
Hi Joat101

That looks neat - thanks for the info!





So how come you answer him and not--

My post from 2 Apr 07 (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/9921000191?r=8651049391#8651049391)

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ReM

GrahamLaming
04-06-2007, 10:10 AM
Hi ReM

Ah heck! You know, I didn't see that post - seriously - missed it. Thanks for the link!

They look promising. Would it mount on the OUTLET of the pump, though? Needs to be after the pump.

I'll try to keep my eyes open more from now on!

Dave Calkins
04-06-2007, 02:45 PM
Originally posted by ReM:
Hey Graham--

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by GrahamLaming:
Hi Joat101

That looks neat - thanks for the info!





So how come you answer him and not--

My post from 2 Apr 07 (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/719605551/m/9921000191?r=8651049391#8651049391)

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ReM </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

One possible problem, is that venturis that are designed to work with pressure washers and with household water systems is that they are designed to work at much higher pressures than are found in BD processors. That may or may not affect how they preform in your processor. Also, the one that was pictured and was designed for a pressure washer said that it listed or rated up to 160 degrees. Not high enough for most peoples processes. Though I don't really know why it wouldn't function at the higher temps.

Maybe I'm just tired, but I find it interesting that there was not one peep about my suggestions about an easier way to build a venturi valve.

Easier to Build Venturi (http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/4/1/2/4121087291/4121087291_Home_Made_Venturi.JPG?ts=461658BB&key=FD1424A52C2D94AD568481014C33B54B&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbiodiesel.infopop.cc%2Feve%2 Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F5221088291%2FHome_Made_Ven turi.JPG)

Maybe I shot my post in the foot by admitting that I am a BD newbie and thus haven't paid my dues to this community so to speak, or maybe it was because my post was a bit long winded, but I have a degree in science, I build things for a living, and I understand plumbing systems well having installed many.

Sorry if I'm a bit touchy this morning. Rough week.

Ryan P.
04-06-2007, 04:25 PM
Maybe I'm just tired, but I find it interesting that there was not one peep about my suggestions about an easier way to build a venturi valve.

Easier to Build Venturi


I thought that was very clever...I'm just waiting to see you build one and post the suction and flow numbers http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. It seems like it might be a bit restrictive, with the small cake tip-to-cake tip opening...at least for a Harbor Freight-like pump.

Dave Calkins
04-06-2007, 08:53 PM
Originally posted by Ryan P.:

I thought that was very clever...I'm just waiting to see you build one and post the suction and flow numbers http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. It seems like it might be a bit restrictive, with the small cake tip-to-cake tip opening...at least for a Harbor Freight-like pump.


Sorry I can't right now. Money and time are very tight right now. I'm going through a divorce after 26 years. Not fun, I've got the kids and am in our home. I really respect and like what I have seen in Graham's design. This forum is one of the best that I have found for overall quality of information and for pushing the development of the various processes.

As far as tip sizes go, the tips I looked at go up to about 3/4 of an inch in opening diameter, and if that is not large enough for some of your systems, a file or grinding wheel would easily make it even larger.

Here is a modified version. It could also be done as was said earlier by filling the tee with solder and drilling and reaming.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_files/attachments/3/2/0/3201094491/3201094491_Home_Made_Venturi.JPG?ts=462611C0&key=9E139E80754A3FF0A3A8B1E45161C20F&referrer=http%3A%2F%2Fbiodiesel.infopop.cc%2Feve%2 Fforums%2Fa%2Fga%2Ful%2F2751019591%2FHome_Made_Ven turi.JPG

Ant
04-07-2007, 01:34 AM
Hi Joat101

That looks neat - thanks for the info!


I find it interesting that the ferteliser mixer has a spcific mixing ratio of 16 to 1. It encourages me that a ratio of 5 to 1 could be achived by design that does not involve cavitation.

Graham; I can not download the venturi sizing program would you be kind enough to mail it to me as an attachment? Assuming it is small enough.

dkenny
04-07-2007, 01:58 PM
Rem,

Thanks for posting about the Northern tools item.
I have one that I don't use any more.

I have been following this thread with interest but hadn't thought about using that mixer

-dkenny

ReM
04-07-2007, 04:07 PM
dkenny--


Originally posted by dkenny:
Rem,

Thanks for posting about the Northern tools item.
I have one that I don't use any more.

I have been following this thread with interest but hadn't thought about using that mixer

-dkenny



Would be interested in the results of any testing you are able to do.

Tnx,

ReM

jamesrl
04-18-2007, 10:16 AM
Hi all,
Just posting this to get the thread to the top.

Today I'm going to make an in tank eductor/mixer.

Ant, you suggested one that would fit trough a 22mm tank connecter, why not fit one by using the 2 /14 hole for the heater and put one in that's 3 - 4 times more efficient.

As Graham said in his last post, a venturi is there for a specific reason The system would not work with out it and an eductor would be an addition too not a replacement of.

An eductor is just another type of static mixer and much simpler than my own inline triple mixer.

Jim

Ant
04-18-2007, 11:43 AM
Just do what you think and try it to see how it goes. I don't use an apple seed or water tank myself anyway.

jamesrl
04-19-2007, 08:35 PM
Originally posted by Ant:
Just do what you think and try it to see how it goes. I don't use an apple seed or water tank myself anyway.

Hi Ant,

Just thought I'd give everyone a quick look at work in progress on an Eductor I have made, the main body and nozzle, yet ot be assembled. It fits easily through the 2 1/4 heater hole.

I made and tried a new 12mm venturi and it knocks spots off all before. It not only meets my standard lift test 12ft in 3 seconds but delivers 1lt of meth. (water in the test) in 6 seconds and only takes 38 second to mix 50lt with 6.33lt catalyst and its only 32mm long.

Number and size of holes round the throat NONE, now thats magic.

Going down the pub to celibrate not only to my success but also reaching the grand old age of the free bus pass.

I'll give full details and shots of the new venturi later.

Jim.

Ant
04-21-2007, 10:05 PM
eductor looks as smooth as we have come to expect from you. I heard in the other thread that it works well too...


Look forward to the details on the new venturi... No holes? Based on the eductor design then? similar to the cake tip design put forward by Dave? But with better angles than the cake tips appear to offer?

Whilst you are building new venturi devices... What about an eductor style fuel nozzle? compressed air as the jet with the nozzle sat vertical with the shroud sat in a pool of oil? Fine atomisation with a clog free nozzle being the goal.

trtmntdude
04-22-2007, 04:36 PM
jim,
please furnish the results and completed eductor for us to gawk at. let me know how the steel ones are coming with your new technique

Dave Calkins
04-25-2007, 12:49 PM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
Just thought I'd give everyone a quick look at work in progress on an Eductor I have made, the main body and nozzle, yet ot be assembled. It fits easily through the 2 1/4 heater hole.

I made and tried a new 12mm venturi and it knocks spots off all before. It not only meets my standard lift test 12ft in 3 seconds but delivers 1lt of meth. (water in the test) in 6 seconds and only takes 38 second to mix 50lt with 6.33lt catalyst and its only 32mm long.

Number and size of holes round the throat NONE, now thats magic.


I'll give full details and shots of the new venturi later.

Jim.

Hi Jim,

Could you post a picture on how you connected the compression end of the Eductor to the venturi part of the eductor?

After your discription of how well it worked, I have been waiting with bated breath.

Thanks,

Dave

jamesrl
04-25-2007, 08:28 PM
Hi all,

Just to keep you happy, here it is, Eductor and mounted nozzle.
This is still the prototype, if you look at the picture you will see that the nozzle can be moved up & down to adjust the distance between the bellmouth and the pump out let. I have found that about two diameters away from the bellmouth give the best mixing with my pump.

The venturi that Ant mentioned has been superceded by supa-dupa venturi delivering a mix ratio of 6.75:1 with the eductor in line(never thought to take it off but I will next time).

That too has now been redesigned trying for the magic 5:1 ratio.
More news to follow on that one.

Jim.

jamesrl
04-25-2007, 08:34 PM
This could be the start of a competition, just for a bit of fun. I am posting a picture here but can anyone tell me what I am making, a clue could be in one of my earlier posts.

The winner will get a free venturi manufactured by yours truly yes little old moi.

No purchases nesseccary to enter.
The coin is a one pound and is 7/8" diameter just to give it scale.

Jim.

lshonda310
04-25-2007, 09:26 PM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
This could be the start of a competition, just for a bit of fun. I am posting a picture here but can anyone tell me what I am making, a clue could be in one of my earlier posts.

The winner will get a free venturi manufactured by yours truly yes little old moi.

No purchases nesseccary to enter.
The coin is a one pound and is 7/8" diameter just to give it scale.

Jim.

is it an inline triple mixer?

Ryan P.
04-25-2007, 10:24 PM
This could be the start of a competition, just for a bit of fun. I am posting a picture here but can anyone tell me what I am making, a clue could be in one of my earlier posts.

The winner will get a free venturi manufactured by yours truly yes little old moi.

No purchases nesseccary to enter.
The coin is a one pound and is 7/8" diameter just to give it scale.

Triple stacked educator that can drop through a 3/4" hole into an appleseed?

jamesrl
04-25-2007, 11:40 PM
No winners so far but on the right track. Another cryptic clue.

lshonda310
04-26-2007, 03:59 AM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
This could be the start of a competition, just for a bit of fun. I am posting a picture here but can anyone tell me what I am making, a clue could be in one of my earlier posts.

The winner will get a free venturi manufactured by yours truly yes little old moi.

No purchases nesseccary to enter.
The coin is a one pound and is 7/8" diameter just to give it scale.

Jim.

is it some sort of stacked venturi to create more suction?

jamesrl
04-26-2007, 10:14 AM
I think it would be better if you PM your answers to prevent the thread getting too long and stopping others using the forum for discussing the real issues.
Another clue ,it has nothing to do with an Eductor

Jim.

jamesrl
04-30-2007, 08:25 PM
Hi all and the lucky winner,

I thought you might like to see my two breeches pieces side by side to get an idea of scale.

Mini me will, I hope, deliver a ratio of 4:1 into my next generation venturi.
The idea behind the three inlet pipes is to overcome a cross sectional area problem and get the NaOH in quicker.

The reason for all the redesigning? someone asked if a venturi could be used for a continuous process, well they can, with my pump you would be making twenty gallons a minute.

trtmntdude
04-30-2007, 11:56 PM
GREAT GOOGLY BOOGLY!

Ant
05-02-2007, 10:36 AM
It was me who asked and thanks for doing it. Now if you could please find time to post a how to for dummies??

jamesrl
05-02-2007, 08:01 PM
Originally posted by Ant:
It was me who asked and thanks for doing it. Now if you could please find time to post a how to for dummies??

Hi Ant,

In answer to your question, first find a forum and read all you can. Pickout the best bits from Le Rois (Mr Graaaaaaham LLLLLLLLaming) and bash some pipe till it does what you want it to, then tell everyone, job done. LoL http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

Seriously, all will be revealed, just got to test my latest thing, it may work ,it may not but I'm hoping. I may have pushed the design to far.

Jim

Jim D
05-04-2007, 05:45 PM
I was just at www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) looking at siphon pumps (jet pumps). They are expensive.

Then I remembered that you can get a plastic siphon pump in the waterbed section. I have not tried it. I have not checked on material compatability. It is just an idea.

http://www.my-waterbed-shop.com/store/products/unnamed_8.html

-Jim

jamesrl
05-04-2007, 07:53 PM
Originally posted by Jim D:
I was just at www.mcmaster.com (http://www.mcmaster.com) looking at siphon pumps (jet pumps). They are expensive.

Then I remembered that you can get a plastic siphon pump in the waterbed section. I have not tried it. I have not checked on material compatability. It is just an idea.

http://www.my-waterbed-shop.com/store/products/unnamed_8.html

-Jim

Can you get hold of one and try it? If it works you Have solved a problem for may people. Experiment, it's the way ahead.

The other Jim.

Jim D
05-04-2007, 08:01 PM
I'm going to check Walmart tonight. I'll stick it in a jar of raw biodiesel (biodiesel/methanol/soap) and see how it holds up while I figure out the connections.

I am obviously concerned about the temperature resistance. Maybe I will get lucky and be able to figure out what it is made of.

-Jim

tgomes
05-05-2007, 01:25 PM
Over on the 'Safer methoxide mixing' thread I see alot of in tank pumps and mixing screws, etc. Has anyone here tried using a small version of James' eductor to mix methoxide? It seems I read here somewhere that they are used in industry to mix powders and liquids.

Thanks,
Tgomes

jamesrl
05-05-2007, 01:31 PM
Originally posted by tgomes:
Over on the 'Safer methoxide mixing' thread I see alot of in tank pumps and mixing screws, etc. Has anyone here tried using a small version of James' eductor to mix methoxide? It seems I read here somewhere that they are used in industry to mix powders and liquids.

Thanks,
Tgomes

What a good idea I've never thought of doing it that way.
Thanks, next project after supa-dupa-dupa-dupa venturi is methoxide Eductor.

Jim.

tgomes
05-05-2007, 06:34 PM
james,

I am in the process of building my first system. I have seen that started testing an eductor for mixing in the tank. What were the results of that test? I'll be building along the lines of GLs' system and the eductor seems like a useful addition.

T.

jamesrl
05-05-2007, 11:12 PM
Hi everyone,

Here it is my ultimate venturi, you can now see why I made the mini breeches. The venturi has a new concept on the output side and I hope it will better a 4:1 ratio. The overall lenght is 90mm including the couplings, the actual venturi, inside the jacket, is 32mm long.

The main input tube is 16mm bore, the three smaller ones are 10mm bore and inside the venturi it has an area equal to that of the 16mm pipe.

The flow from the methoxide carboy to the venturi is equal all the way through to the main flow of oil. If all goes well the three plastic tubes will be replaced with copper pipe.

My dream is to have a Supa-dupa-dupa-dupa venturi, or as my daughter said, I cann't believe it's not just a copper pipe, my triple inline mixer and an intank eductor, how's that for mixing?

For all those who want to use an Eductor for mixing there is a very simple way to fit one upto 2 1/2" diam, it's called an Essex Flange, it can be fitted to any tank and the whole thing can be done from the outside, no welding or soldering, it's a compression type thing.

Jim.

Paulus
05-06-2007, 02:30 PM
And what's the verdict, Jim?

Paulus
05-06-2007, 02:46 PM
By the way, any details please on what an Essex flange is? Hopefully just as user-friendly as an Essex girl...

Dave Calkins
05-06-2007, 02:54 PM
Originally posted by jamesrl:

For all those who want to use an Eductor for mixing there is a very simple way to fit one upto 2 1/2" diam, it's called an Essex Flange, it can be fitted to any tank and the whole thing can be done from the outside, no welding or soldering, it's a compression type thing.

Jim.

Hi Jim,

I did a google search on Essex Flanges and couldn't find anything that either showed a picture of how they are installed or had a description of how they are installed. I search through 5 pages before giving up.

They can be installed from the outside with no welding or soldering, but how does the back side of the flange work? Does the washer on the backside flex so it will go into the hole that is smaller than it is? Then the star nut holds the washer flat and gasket tight?

Anyone know of a link that shows the installation process?

Thanks,

jamesrl
05-06-2007, 07:28 PM
The test of sddd venturi is complete and it did what it said on the tin, yep a mix ratio of 4:1.

I started with 50lt in my test rig and 10lt in a bucket and an open end pipe, turned on the pump and timed how long it took to take up the 10lts, wow, 28 seconds, when the bucket was empty I measured what had gone from the tank, only 40lt.

Next I added the eductor and followed the same proceedure, achieved a ratio of 6.25:1 and the tank was like a boiling cauldron. When the supply of water had run out and the venturi sucked in air the tank really went mad, it was like a volcanoe boiling and bubbling at a tremendous rate, that should get the methanol out of the bio and the water out of the oil.

Next it was the turn of the inline mixer with the eductor in the tank, the ultimate in mixing now, venturi , triple inline mixer and an eductor. With all the back pressure from that little lot the mix ratio fell to 10:1.
That means I would have to turn over my processer volume twice to input the NaOH, but is that a bad thing? With the pump I have and the batch sizes I intend to produce (75lt) turning over the volume twice will take 1min 40 secs.

The conclusion is that having three 8mm pipes has very little advantage over one 15mm pipe.

Now the Essex flange, search for bes.co.uk, on the left side of the page goto Plumbing then to Cylinder Immersion heaters & flanges scoll down and viola Essex flanges

Paulus
05-06-2007, 09:28 PM
Hi James

You mean 8mm as in your three 8mm pipes from the mini breeches piece into the three suction inlets on the venturi? Is that because you lost performance with the mixeer and eductor added in?

Also, when the venturi was sucking air, did any of that due to the boiling effect get into the pump and disrupt performance?

Spectacular results otherwise.

Paulus
05-06-2007, 09:33 PM
Found the web site on essex flanges. For the unimaginative among us, how on earth do they work?

jamesrl
05-06-2007, 11:00 PM
Hi Paulus,
As I said in my conclusion there is no real advantage with three inlets on the venturi, it was just another experiment to see how far I could push the design. I reached the target I set myself of 4:1 or better. It has no practical use at the moment for home brewers that I know, but I'm new to bio, my be someone else could use that perfomance.

When sucking air there is such an upward swirl in the tank due to the eductor, that not one bubble got into the pump, any air in my pump renders it almost useless.

Back to the Essex flange, how do they work?.

Cut a hole slightly larger than the diameter of the male thread. The back flange has a single split on the diameter line so you can screw it into the hole, once in (don't drop it) you feed one of the flexable washers through the hole around the threaded boss, you now have a flange and washer inside the tank. Fit second washer to the outside and screw on the backing nut/flange and tighten up, one 2 1/2" threaded hole.

Bes also supply a plug to fit the boss, so drill and fit a 3/4" tank connector to the plug.

Drill out the tank connector so you can slide your 3/4" pipe all the way through. Fit your eductor to your pipe and feed it up through the tank connector, nip the olive so the pipe dosen't slide out, pass the assembly through the essex flange, fit and tighten the plug, you now have an adjustable eductor.

Is that any help?

Jim

jamesrl
05-07-2007, 10:25 PM
tgomes,

An eductor is great for mixing in the processer, if you can get hold of one use it, I shall be using mine.

I've looked at the idea of using an eductor to mix methoxide with a venturi to suck in the NaOH.
I've made and tested a small eductor that will fit through a 3/4" fitting, the mixing ability of such a small eductor is outstanding.

I've attached a shot of the two eductor's I shall be using in the near future.


Jim.

ONADAY
05-08-2007, 02:09 AM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
tgomes,

An eductor is great for mixing in the processer, if you can get hold of one use it, I shall be using mine.

I've looked at the idea of using an eductor to mix methoxide with a venturi to suck in the NaOH.
I've made and tested a small eductor that will fit through a 3/4" fitting, the mixing ability of such a small eductor is outstanding.

I've attached a shot of the two eductor's I shall be using in the near future.


Jim.
It seems likely to me that one might be able to use a single eductor inside the tank for mixing, methoxide injection and also for injecting air for drying the diesel ..Logical??

Dave Calkins
05-08-2007, 11:14 AM
Hi Jim,

Great work!

Just a few questions.


Originally posted by jamesrl:

When sucking air there is such an upward swirl in the tank due to the eductor, that not one bubble got into the pump, any air in my pump renders it almost useless.



How far down below the fluid level did you install your eductor?

With your tests being done with water, would BD's heavier viscosity effect things?


Back to the Essex flange, how do they work?.

Cut a hole slightly larger than the diameter of the male thread.


Sorry, I am a visual learner, a picture truly for me is better than a thousand words. Could you possibly post a little sketch with things labled?

Male thread of the essex?


The back flange has a single split on the diameter line so you can screw it into the hole,


What is the diameter line?


once in (don't drop it)


What about using a tee shaped wire like a coat hanger or a piece of copper wire in order to keep things from falling into the tank?


you feed one of the flexable washers through the hole around the threaded boss,


Ah, it is a flexible washer. What is a threaded boss?


you now have a flange and washer inside the tank. Fit second washer to the outside and screw on the backing nut/flange and tighten up, one 2 1/2" threaded hole.

Bes also supply a plug to fit the boss, so drill and fit a 3/4" tank connector to the plug.


This is hard for me to picture. What is the plug for? What is the 3/4" tank connector?


Drill out the tank connector so you can slide your 3/4" pipe all the way through. Fit your eductor to your pipe and feed it up through the tank connector, nip the olive


What is the olive that gets nipped? To me an olive is a green thing with a red pimento stuffed inside.


so the pipe dosen't slide out, pass the assembly through the essex flange, fit and tighten the plug, you now have an adjustable eductor.

Is that any help?

Jim

I'm getting there. I've sweated my share of copper pipe over the years, but I am not familiar with some of the terms you have used. Thanks for your patience with a non plumber.

ONADAY
05-08-2007, 08:15 PM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
The test of sddd venturi is complete and it did what it said on the tin, yep a mix ratio of 4:1.

I started with 50lt in my test rig and 10lt in a bucket and an open end pipe, turned on the pump and timed how long it took to take up the 10lts, wow, 28 seconds, when the bucket was empty I measured what had gone from the tank, only 40lt.

Next I added the eductor and followed the same proceedure, achieved a ratio of 6.25:1 and the tank was like a boiling cauldron. When the supply of water had run out and the venturi sucked in air the tank really went mad, it was like a volcanoe boiling and bubbling at a tremendous rate, that should get the methanol out of the bio and the water out of the oil.

Next it was the turn of the inline mixer with the eductor in the tank, the ultimate in mixing now, venturi , triple inline mixer and an eductor. With all the back pressure from that little lot the mix ratio fell to 10:1.
That means I would have to turn over my processer volume twice to input the NaOH, but is that a bad thing? With the pump I have and the batch sizes I intend to produce (75lt) turning over the volume twice will take 1min 40 secs.

The conclusion is that having three 8mm pipes has very little advantage over one 15mm pipe.

Now the Essex flange, search for bes.co.uk, on the left side of the page goto Plumbing then to Cylinder Immersion heaters & flanges scoll down and viola Essex flanges

In checking the net the "Essex Flange" seems to be an English (UK) term ... Does anyone know what it is in the USA>>> These have got to be here in the USA ..

jamesrl
05-09-2007, 07:56 PM
Hi Dave,

A few pictures for you and others.

This one is a Tank connector laid out in pieces.
To fit it to any tank or drum, cut hole to suit the big boss type thing, fit washer onto boss and pass through hole, screw on flange nut and tighten, put the olive into the recess and screw on clamping nut, ready to use.

jamesrl
05-09-2007, 08:00 PM
Now the plug thing. the plug is to fit into the essex flange or tank flange both 2 1/4" NPT, the tank flange is either soldered or brazed in place.

jamesrl
05-09-2007, 08:11 PM
And now all assembled, the tank connector has been soldered to the inside of the plug, a 3/4" pipe can be fed through the tank connector and held at any point by the olive when the clamp nut is tightened.
So if you had an eductor that fits through the 2 1/4"(true size inside 2 1/2") flange and connected to a 3/4" pipe, you slide the pipe through the tank connector, nip the clamp nut to hold it and screw the plug into the flange.

You are now able to slide the pipe up and down and position the eductor where you want it.

Paulus
05-09-2007, 09:00 PM
Thank you Jim. All reasonably clear.

How would you get on if trying to insert a 1" tube through the plug though?

Any chance of a clear, ruled drawing of your standard venturi and eductor, with measurements?

Paulus
05-09-2007, 11:21 PM
I should add that this is the way I am setting up my processor -

It's a 44 (55) gallon drum with pump outlet going up and over and down through the 2" hole. In the 2" hole there's a bushing down to 1".

Protruding through this bushing is an extra long 1" nipple I've had cut to which I can attach an eductor at a later date.

By measurement and cutting to length I can set the height of said eductor, but it won't be variable as your setup with the olive and clamp nut allows.

jamesrl
05-09-2007, 11:48 PM
Hi Paulus,
Does the question not answer its self?
A 1" tank connector.

As yet I have never used a rule or tapemeasure on my venturi's it's all done by eye, I look at an angle a decide if it will work or not and adjust to suit.

I have read that 30 deg. in and 5 deg. out are said to be the best angles to use so I aim to hit those but I've never measured them.

If you draw a section of what you want using the angles suggested that will tell you how long the taper should be.

I'll do a section sketch of what I do but it's up to the individual as to the measurements. They will be be determind buy the pump output and pipe size its a matter of trial and error I'm afraid.

It took me about six venturi's to get the best out off my pump. I'll be posting a picture of all my venturi's side by side in an evolutionary manner

jamesrl
05-10-2007, 12:10 AM
Sorry Paulus your second post arrived whilst I was writting a reply.
If you set an eductor about 3" below the surface it works very well.
I have a test drum and measure what the pump will deliver with different nozzle sizes and then multiply the nozzle area by five to give the area of the inside diam of the Eductor.

The collection end is governed by the hole you have to put it through. I aimed for thr 5 deg. out angle with a short parallel section in the middle, that seems to work well.

Is that any help.

Jim

jamesrl
05-21-2007, 12:20 AM
Ant asked if I could make a micro venturi, well I thought I'd start with a micro eductor, to scale it I have put three side by side, the middle one fits through a 3/4" socket the micro is 1/2" diameter.

jamesrl
05-21-2007, 12:25 AM
This is of my latest venturi, they are aslo getting smaller the micro eductor is to give it scale.
The venturi inside the jacket is only 30mm long and has a 12.5mm throat.

If anybody out there wants a venturi PM me with your requirements.

Jim.

Dave Calkins
05-21-2007, 04:58 PM
I got the thinking, and thats a dangerous thing, for those using a venturi to de-water and to de-meth the brew, as well as an eductor or a jet of fluid for mixing, any type of system that injects the returning flow directly into the oil rather than having it cascade through the air at the top of the tank, would you get faster de-watering and faster meth distillation if you used a second port at the top rather than the eductor within the mix? My thoughts are the eductor likely does a good job of remixing the vapors back into the brew which then may or may not bubble back up to the surface. If you had the vapors enter at the top rather and then cascade back down into the oil, the vapor would not tend to get drawn back into the oil as readily, but would would have a better chance of being exhausted through the condenser because of the vacuum which is being generated by the venturi.

Does that make sense?

jamesrl
05-21-2007, 07:29 PM
Hi Dave,
The eductor should be 3" or so below the surface of the oil, the only air it can inject into the bio is from the venturi, which you have total control off via a valve.

The said air or atmoshpere is recirculated throught the condenser and dried, this is then injected back into the flow (when you choose) through the venturi then onto the eductor.

The bubbles generated are then mixed with the additional flow from the eductor and forced downward into the bio picking up more methanol.
And so on and so on, cycle after cycle until all the meth has gone.

Does that explain it better.

Ye Olde Coppersmith.

Jim.

GrahamLaming
05-23-2007, 07:10 PM
Hi Folks

jamesrl kindly send me 4 of his venturis to try so I thought I'd let you know how I got on with them.

I have only tested water flow rate on the inlets so far, on a 4 foot lift.

My next experiment, which I'll carry out over the weekend, will be to compare vapour flow rates.

Fluid flow rate is important if you are using the venturi for methanol injection and mixing.

Vapour flow rate is important if you are using the venturi to circulate vapours thru the condenser during methanol distilling.

All venturis had 22mm diameter copper feed and exhaust, with 8mm or 10mm inlet ports.

The three venturis have different internal dimensions, and this is how I found them to compare...

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/james_venturi_group.gif


All 3 performed well.

James, can you describe the internal differences for us?

Here is the triple feed venturi on my test rig. Unfortunately, I suspect my pump doesn't have enough power to allow this venturi to operate at its potential. It appears to move vapour well, but I couldn't raise liquid more than 42 inches, so there was no nett liquid flow over the 4 feet head I have set for the experiment. In fact, liquid was leaking out of the inlet ports.

I believe James has a pump with almost double my flow rate, and if you double flow rate, you should get 4 times the suction.

My pump was running flat out and delivering just under 50 litres a minute whilst connected to the venturis.

Here is the triple inlet venturi on the test rig...

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/james_triple_inlet.gif


The venturis were all well made and solidly jointed - no surprises there!

More results to follow ...

jamesrl
05-23-2007, 07:43 PM
Hi Graham,

Thanks for the report, as you said my pump has a little more out put, rated by Stuart Turner at 130ltr/min but I've never measured at that.

The triple inlet venturi draws 21.4lts/min on my test rig and I can reach a 16ft head with no problem, that proves the theory 2 x flow = 4 x suck.

The listed performace is totally opposite to my results, triple-fastest, your 4ltr result-slowest.

May I offer a little advise as far as flow, 90deg. elbows, obtuse or 45deg.elbows and tee's kill flow. If you replace them with pulled bends the performance of the venturi's will increase quite a bit ("quite a bit" is a precise scientific measurement equal to "almost exactly right").

I'll try to explain the differences in another post but there is very little between them just enought to get better out put from each.

Jim.

Twenty4Seven
05-23-2007, 09:50 PM
Interesting, though not suprising, results with the Grundfos. Jim's venturis are obviously well matched to his Stuart Turner pump but the Grunfos doesn't have enough grunt. Same goes for the 1" clearwater pump I reckon....

....What I really want to know is what plans you have for that propane cylinder in your pic http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Cheers

Nick

jamesrl
05-24-2007, 12:08 AM
It looks like my reactor before I got my hands on it, geat to work with and 2.5mm thick.

GrahamLaming
05-24-2007, 07:22 AM
Hi Jim,

The listed performace is totally opposite to my results, triple-fastest, your 4ltr result-slowest.


That's interesting, so this suggests they have quite steep performance curves.

Features in the top one must favour low flow performance against high flow performance.

Features in the bottom one must favour high flow performance against low flow performance.

What are the internal differences?

--------------

You're right about the elbows - but this replicates the bend on my processor and my pump, so it is reasonably representative of my system.

Ideally there should be 10 pipe diameters of straight run before the pump inlet and before the venturi inlet to allow the flow turbulence to straighten out.

My new processor will address this and a few other design shortfalls.

jamesrl
05-24-2007, 09:13 PM
Hi Graham,

I have made another venturi, hopefully, for low flow pumps.

I've gone back to basics with the internal design to replicate, to a degree, my original venturi, the one you got the best performace from.

There is a subtle difference, if it works for you, (I'm sending it over) then I will have enough information to go public with my findings.

I've attached a picture though you can't se the inside, but I thought I'd let you see it.

jamesrl
05-24-2007, 09:19 PM
I've also made a fully flowed "T" piece, it's designed for the venturi input and only works in one direction towards the centre leg.

One side methoxide the other recirculated vapours controled by 15mm ball valves.

See attachment.

tgomes
05-26-2007, 03:53 PM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
Hi Graham,

I have made another venturi, hopefully, for low flow pumps.

I've gone back to basics with the internal design to replicate, to a degree, my original venturi, the one you got the best performace from.

There is a subtle difference, if it works for you, (I'm sending it over) then I will have enough information to go public with my findings.

I've attached a picture though you can't se the inside, but I thought I'd let you see it.

My test of my first attempts is done and the news is not good. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It has a 13mm throat and a 4mm space between inlet and out nozzles. 3/4" pipe in and out with a 3/8" suction tube. My pump is a Taco 007 and it moves 64 liters/min. It would ony lift 1 foot at first but by reducing the suction pipe to 5/16" I was able to double that. Still not enough! James, any recomendations for a lower flowing pump such as this? Graham, this seems to be on par with your grundfos. What venturi design are you curently using?

Thanks.
Tgomes

jamesrl
05-27-2007, 12:10 PM
Hi tgomes,

I have found from Grahams tests that a low output pump needs a particular internal design.

Input cone 30deg.
Output cone 5deg.
Input throat diameter 10mm
output throat diameter 11mm
Gap between 2.5mm.

Keep the sides of the output cone as strait as possible.

The shape of high output venturis is just like a rocket motor nozzle all curved both in and out.

hope that helps.

Jim.

tgomes
05-27-2007, 01:21 PM
Thanks james,

Version 2.0 in the works. You and Graham have been a real goldmine.

tgomes

jamesrl
05-27-2007, 02:33 PM
Originally posted by tgomes:
Thanks james,

Version 2.0 in the works. You and Graham have been a real goldmine.

tgomes

Stick with the 5/16 suction pipe.

Jim.

trtmntdude
05-27-2007, 03:06 PM
Hello James,
I just saw that you have a low flow venturi. How low of a flow? Could i send you a Harbor Freight pump so that you could design a venturi that would best suit that pump? It seems to be the one that most people on this site are using?

trtmntdude
05-27-2007, 03:09 PM
James,
Would a reduction in throat size increase the suction?

jamesrl
05-27-2007, 06:44 PM
Originally posted by trtmntdude:
James,
Would a reduction in throat size increase the suction?

Hi Shawn,

It appears from Grahams results with my venturi's, that a low flow venturi must have a small throat not more than 10mm and the low pressure side must be of a particular shape.

I have just this minute finished a new bit of kit to reduce flow resistance from the bottom of the processor to the pump.

It's a variation on the cross piece most people use. with out the sudden change in direction.

Top leg, processor out.

Left leg, WVO input.

Right leg, to pump.

Bottom leg, drain off.

So from top to right leg is a smooth flow.


Jim.

PS. I've just thought of a new idea to recirculate vapours, an inside out venturi that any one can make (If it works), I'll try one tomorrow.

Jim.

jamesrl
05-27-2007, 06:51 PM
Shawn,

If you want to send one (HF pump), by all means do so but I'd hate to think what the shipping costs will be. If its as heavy as my pump, 6.6kg, it will cost an arm and a leg.

Jim.

trtmntdude
05-27-2007, 10:18 PM
Jim,
Saw the cross piece, you never cease to amaze!
The HF pump is actually pretty small. i'll check the weight and shipping and let you know.

GrahamLaming
05-28-2007, 10:45 AM
Hi tgomes
My test of my first attempts is done and the news is not good. Frown It has a 13mm throat and a 4mm space between inlet and out nozzles. 3/4" pipe in and out with a 3/8" suction tube. My pump is a Taco 007 and it moves 64 liters/min. It would ony lift 1 foot at first but by reducing the suction pipe to 5/16" I was able to double that. Still not enough! James, any recomendations for a lower flowing pump such as this? Graham, this seems to be on par with your grundfos. What venturi design are you curently using?


A check list may help... see the diagram below

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi_installation_tips.gif

1. The outlet tube length d1 should be AT LEAST 10 pipe diameters long. This is really important. If the outlet tube is short, the flow after the venturi will break up, and allow air to leak into the venturi thru the outlet tube. The tube should be horizontal, and it MAY help to have the venturi very slightly below the level of the outlet tube.

2. The outlet tube end should be at atmospheric pressure [p1 = atmospheric pressure.]
This means the venturi must be above the level of fluid in your tank and your tank must be open and vented.

3. The venturi should be fed directly from the pump. Anything between the pump and venturi which will restrict flow, will kill venturi performance.

The amount of vacuum you can make is determined by the velocity of fluid thru the restriction.
So the restriction should be chosen to be as small as possible without overloading the head limitation of your pump. An optimum restriction will exist for your pump.

Now, we aren't really aiming for maximum vacuum. We want to encourage flow, not static vacuum. This means your suction tube must be wide enough to allow sufficient flow rate for your process.

My venturi, which works well as a methanol suction pump and as a vapour recirculator with my 50 to 60 litre per minute pump is shown below .

Its performance can probably be improved, but it is working well in my current system in a 115 litre processor.


http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi_22mm_rough_dimensions.gif


Hope that helps.

GrahamLaming
05-28-2007, 10:55 AM
Hi folks

Here's another idea. A while back, I tried a simpler approach at making a venturi. (I'm a 'smack-it-with-a-hammer' type person)

The aim is to accelerate fluid flow.

Simplest method? Squash the pipe! A hacksaw cut just downstream of the narrowest point is the suction port.

The squash needs to be as smooth and gradual as possible to minimise turbulence.

A 10mm dia. 1/2 tube soldered over the slot allows connection to the suction port.

Works reasonably well, but I haven't developed it. The internal surface of the pipe near the hacksaw cut needs to be perfectly smooth - no burrs to upset the flow.

What do you think?

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi_flat_tube_side.gif

http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi_flat_tube_taper.gif


http://www.graham-laming.com/bd/venturi/venturi_flat_tube_end.gif

tgomes
05-28-2007, 11:09 AM
Thanks Graham,

That helps quite a bit. Just one question. Is the 8mm the diameter of te throat or the inlet tube or both? I am trying something a bit different. I am making a 2 piece plug that will thread into a 3/4" black iron tee. The venturi shape will be cast around the plug with an epoxy and the plugs removed. The inlet can then be drilled in from the tee opening and a reducing bushing and hose barb attached. I think I can make a very smooth shape this way and still have all steel piping in my system.

tgomes

GrahamLaming
05-28-2007, 11:13 AM
Hi tgomes

8mm throat diameter and 8mm side tube diameter.

tgomes
05-29-2007, 04:46 PM
Graham,

Do you see any advantage to plumbing the venturi with 45 degree fittings between the pump and venturi and the tank. This would keep the venturi angled and ease the flow from the pump. I am just not sure if the 45 at the tank entrance would cause too much of a restriction on the outlet pipe.

Thanks,
tgomes

Ant
05-29-2007, 10:44 PM
They willl perhaps restict ther flow. you czn get elbows that are a smooth radius wthout an angled bend. They are the better ones to use.

jamesrl
05-30-2007, 12:07 AM
This evening I was testing a new low flow venturi, using a washing machine pump, without much success. There was very little suction, only lifting an inche or so.

As nothing was happening with the lift I though I'd see how far down the tank I could get the bubbles drawn in by the venturi, as it was pulling air ok, what sort of mixing would I get from the pump, so I put the end of the tube about 3" below the surface and watched the action.

As I watched what was happening the suction tube droped back into the water I was using to test the lift and in about 3 secs. it drew up about four feet. I pulled the tube out of the water to draw air again, lifted the pipe in the tank above the surface, put the suction tube back into the water, no lift, I put the pipe back below the surface and up it came again.

I repeated it several times to test it and every time I put the pipe below the surface the suction increased considerably.

I have no idea what the theory behind it is but it don't arf work well, new idea for low flow pumps then.

Jim

tgomes
05-30-2007, 05:05 AM
james,

Could it be that some small amount of backpressure might be necessary? Like the 10 pipe diameters graham mentioned earlier being needed to ensure that no air sneaks back down the outlet pipe? Possibly this effect exists in all venturi's but is overcome by brute force with a larger pump.

tgomes

jamesrl
05-30-2007, 09:16 AM
Originally posted by tgomes:
james,

Could it be that some small amount of backpressure might be necessary? Like the 10 pipe diameters graham mentioned earlier being needed to ensure that no air sneaks back down the outlet pipe? Possibly this effect exists in all venturi's but is overcome by brute force with a larger pump.

tgomes

That could be the case, but I had more that 10 diameters so I didn't think air could be drawn back that far. I'll lenghten the out let side and see what happens.


Jim.

tgomes
06-02-2007, 03:09 PM
Hello All,

Found a web site for Mazzei, a company that makes venturi's for the irrigation and other industries. Thier venturis are designed for low flow applications and there is alot of information on thier site. Thier venturis are available made of Kynar which has a max temp of 285f when used with methanol.

www.mazzei.net/chem.htm (http://www.mazzei.net/chem.htm)
www.kynar.com (http://www.kynar.com)

tgomes

tgomes
06-02-2007, 03:11 PM
James,

Check out Mazzeis' tech papers. There is one about troubleshooting thier venturis that might explain your discovery.

tgomes

Dave Calkins
06-04-2007, 12:43 AM
Originally posted by tgomes:
James,

Check out Mazzeis' tech papers. There is one about troubleshooting thier venturis that might explain your discovery.

tgomes

tgomes

Great call on the troubleshooting info. Good information there.


So much so that I think it would be a good idea to have a copy in our archives for others to read, so here it is.

TECHNICAL BULLETIN No. 10
TROUBLESHOOTING MAZZEI INJECTORS

When properly specified, installed, and operated, Mazzei® Injectors provide trouble-free operation. In the real world, however, there are a number of factors that can cause a Mazzei® Injector to decrease in performance or fail to perform altogether. These factors are discussed in detail below.

A. Installation Tips

1. Mazzei® Injectors should be installed with the flow arrow in a horizontal or upward position. If installed in a vertically down position, there must be at least 5 to 10 psig of outlet pressure.
2. To optimize performance of a Mazzei® Injector, there should always be some piping attached to the injector outlet. As little as 12" of piping works well when venting directly to atmospheric pressure.
3. Always use "full flow" valves and fittings when connecting to a Mazzei® Injector. Never use piping or pipe fittings smaller than the thread size of the Mazzei® Injector.
4. Do not over-tighten Mazzei® Injectors when attaching them to pipe or fittings. The use of a thread sealant is recommended.
5. Mazzei® Injectors require a pressure differential to operate properly. Normally, the outlet pressure must be at least 25-30% less than the inlet pressure for significant suction to occur. Pressure gauges are very helpful in establishing the actual pressure differential.

B. Some Simple Tests To Determine Whether or Not a Mazzei® Injector is Working

1. With the suction line disconnected and the injector in operation, place your finger over the suction port. Can you feel suction?
2. With the suction line disconnected and the injector in operation, gently depress the ball inside the internal check valve on the suction port. A slender, blunt tool should be used for this purpose. Does water spurt out of the suction port?

If you can feel suction, and water does not spurt out the suction port during operation, the injector is generating a vacuum and is working properly. If you cannot feel suction, and water does spurt out the suction port during operation, the injector is not generating a vacuum.

C. Reasons Why A Mazzei® Injector Might Not Be Working

1. Injector is Damaged: Mazzei® Injectors are made from either Polypropylene or PVDF thermoplastics. Both of these materials are quite resistant to abuse. They can be damaged, however, by over tightening, from impact, or from being subjected to excessive torsion. If you suspect this to be the case, examine the injector for cracks, holes or other signs of damage. If any are found, replace the injector.

2. Insufficient Pressure Differential: Mazzei® Injectors typically begin suction with a water pressure differential of about 20%. Significant suction does not begin until the water pressure differential is in the range of 25-30%. For liquid suction, Mazzei® Injectors reach maximum suction when the water pressure differential is about 50%. For gas suction, suction capacity increases until the outlet water pressure is zero. It is difficult to estimate water pressure differential. It should be measured with pressure gauges both upstream and downstream of the injector. An important characteristic of Mazzei® Injectors is that they do not, by themselves, create a pressure differential. Both the upstream and downstream pressures experienced by an injector are caused by the system into which the injector is placed, not by the injector. Thus, merely placing a Mazzei® Injector in a pressurized water line will not necessarily create any water pressure differential, other than friction loss. If a particular system cannot generate sufficient water pressure differential for the Mazzei® Injector to operate properly, then an alternative method of installation must be considered.


TECHNICAL BULLETIN No. 10
®
TROUBLESHOOTING MAZZEI INJECTORS

Insufficient Water Flow: At any given set of inlet and outlet water pressures, Mazzei® Injectors require a certain water flow. This water flow may be determined from the Mazzei® Performance Table for each injector. If less water is supplied than that stated in the Performance Table, suction capacity could be decreased or disappear entirely. There are several possible causes for insufficient water flow.
These are:
(a) The supply pump is incorrect or it is worn or damaged.
(b) Inlet and/or outlet piping are too small. Piping and pipe fittings should always be of the same piping size as the injector thread size.
(c) There is debris or an obstruction in the upstream side of the injector.
(d) The injector selected is too large. Select an injector that requires less water flow.

3. Suction Line is Obstructed: The suction line to a Mazzei® Injector may become dirty or obstructed. It should be check periodically to make certain it is clean and clear.

4. Injector is Scaled or Fouled: Many contaminants found in water can precipitate on water-wet surfaces. These surfaces include the interior of the Mazzei® Injector. When this occurs, the performance of the injector can be severely impaired. Sufficient scaling and/or fouling can cause a complete loss of suction capacity.

Compounds that can cause scaling and/or fouling include calcium carbonate, iron, manganese, metal sulfides, calcium sulfate, silica, and microbiological slimes. Many times scaling and/or fouling is most severe at the point of gas or chemical injection. This is due to the gas or chemical being extremely concentrated at this point, before the water passing through the injector dilutes it. Scaling and/or fouling of the Mazzei® Injector is not a design flaw of the injector. Rather, it is a characteristic of the water being treated and would occur with any method of gas or chemical injection. When scaling and/or fouling occurs, the Mazzei® Injector must be removed from service and chemically (not mechanically) cleaned.

The injector can be cleaned with the following method:

Pour two quarts of water into a 5-gallon bucket. Pour one quart of “Pool Acid” into bucket. Always add the acid to the water. Place the injector in the bottom of the bucket and allow it to soak for 30 minutes. Fill the bucket with water and dispose of properly. Rinse the injector with fresh water and place back in service.

“Pool Acid” is Hydrochloric Acid or Muriatic Acid. Typical “Pool Acid” is about 30% acid. ALWAYS WEAR PERSONAL PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT when handling acids or other hazardous chemicals. At a minimum, this would include rubber gloves, rubber apron, and goggles or a full-face shield.

As actual cleaning methods are beyond the control of Mazzei Injector Corporation, we assume no liability for this recommendation.

Mazzei Injector Corp. 500 Rooster Dr. Bakersfiled, CA 93307 USA www.mazzei.net (http://www.mazzei.net) Phone: 661-363-6500

jamesrl
06-05-2007, 09:54 PM
Hi y'all,

Im in the process of making a venturi for Bright Young Maverick, it's so large due to his pipe size that is stands 8" tall.

I just had to show it to you so I put the smallest next to it to show the difference in size. The little one is 1 1/4".

Jim.

P.S. If you would like a venturi PM me.

tgomes
06-08-2007, 02:13 PM
Hello All,

I have gotten my 3/4" iron pipe tee venturi together and ready to test. The interior is an epoxy casting with the apropriate angles. Can someone tell me how to get pictures posted? Also I've ordered a Mazzei venturi for testing. Acording to them Kynar is suitable for all of the chemicals in BD. For only $36 I thought I would give it a try. Has anyone tried mounting the venturi vertical instead of horizontal? For space reasons I need to keep the piping as close to the tank as I can and this would help alot.

Thanks,
tgomes

jamesrl
06-08-2007, 02:51 PM
Hi tgomes,

Yes ALL my venturi's are run vertical, the only problem is drain back and if the outlet pipe is below the oil surface, e.g. intank eductor, it will syphon as well. so use a non return valve on the vacuum tube.

Good luck with the testing, I hope it works well for you.

Jim.

Ant
06-10-2007, 09:54 AM
I made a workable venturi cheaply and easily by sleeving a 15mm to 8mm reducer inside a 15mm tee with ethe 8mm facing in. It fired into a 10mm reducer facing in from the other side. #the side branch of the tee was reduced to 8mm also; this time with the 8mm facing out. there was a two or three mm gap between the 8mm and 10mm reducers as they faced each other inside the tee. Only cost two quid for the end feed bits. That incuded the coupler to add the foot of 15mmm pipe to the outlet and the two 15mm to 22mm reducers to mount it all in my particular system. I used silver solder for greater mechanical strength.

Bright Young Maverick
06-15-2007, 12:42 AM
Jamesrl's venturis really SUCK!!!!

I mean that in a good way, of course!

Attached are some pictures of the venturi Jamesrl made for me -- the 1" diameter one. Just got it plumbed in this morning, and ran a batch.

It works GREAT!!! http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The only issue I had was backwash, which I fixed with the little 1/2" ball valve.

I highly recommend Jamesrl - he does good work!


http://www.sylmicro.com/trailer/venturi1.jpg

http://www.sylmicro.com/trailer/venturi2.jpg

jamesrl
06-15-2007, 12:53 AM
Thanks for the photos, it's the first one I've seen in action.

I'm pleased I could help you.

Jim.

If anyone would like a venturi please PM me.

jamesrl
06-16-2007, 02:13 PM
Hi All,

Here is my latest Home Made Venturi, it’s made to the correct geometrical requirements, 30deg in 5deg out.

This one is built to use with ¾” iron pipe, and can be made for 1” as well as in the case of Bright Young Maverick,

It has been developed for HF and Grunfos pumps.

Jim.

TurbinePowered
06-16-2007, 05:39 PM
May I add my compliments to those who have spoken before me? That is some beautiful work!

So, has anyone figured out yet if these venturis will still work when put upstream from a static mixer? Memory is failing me whether or not that question has been answered yet...

jamesrl
06-16-2007, 06:39 PM
If the right mixer is used, yes.

It has to be flowed so backpressure from the mixer doesn't interfere with the performance of the venturi.

I can run a venturi, static mixer and an intank eductor.

Paulus
06-16-2007, 08:17 PM
May I add my compliments to those who have spoken before me? That is some beautiful work!

Yes, Jim, without question that should be on show at the National Gallery in London.

Ant
06-17-2007, 05:18 PM
Attached are some pictures of the venturi Jamesrl made for me -- the 1" diameter one. Just got it plumbed in this morning, and ran a batch.


what is the flow rate and pressure of your pump?

jamesrl
06-17-2007, 08:15 PM
what is the flow rate and pressure of your pump?

Hi Ant,

It was made to run on the famous HF pump, rated at 330gall./hour, not sure at what pressure.

Jim

Ant
06-18-2007, 09:56 AM
around 25 litres a minute? That is slow for three quarter inch piping. I thought my 40 litres a minute pump was slow and restrict the outlet to at least 15mm to speed up the stream as it enters the tank. I`m still experimenting.

jamesrl
06-18-2007, 10:15 AM
The throat of the venturi is 8mm, quite an increase in the flow velocity.
I haven't tried restricting the out let in an experiment, but I have put my thumb over the out let and messed about like that. It does have an affect on the efficiency of the venturi.

Jim.

Ant
06-19-2007, 01:01 PM
Here is my naff sketch of my lego venturi. A properly drawn up one should follow thank's to GL's willingness to do one of his lovely diagrams for our benefit.

The 22mm coupler on the inlet connetcts to my inch bsp hydraulic hose using a standard adaptor fitting. Using a similar adaptor the 22mm connector on the outlet side connects to an inch bsp stainless pipe weleded into the side of my tank. The foot of 15mm pipe passes through the 22mm connector and the inch bsp pipe to enter the tank. The inch bsp pipe extends inside the tank but the 15mmm pipe extends beyond it. The pipe is welded in at an angle to encourage swirl.

The copper pipe fittings are all of the end feed type. Silver solder is used to join them as the greater mechanical strength it offers is needed with my heavy hose. This is also why most of the venturi outlet is inside the tank beyond the mounting point on the inch bsp pipe; to reduce leverage forces and improve mechanical stability.

It works well enough to draw in meth at about 3 litres per min with my 40litre per min rated pump. I think with oil the pump runs more like 30lpm in practice; so a ten to one mixing ratio seems to be what is happening. It costs two or three quid in parts plus another couple of quid for a stick of silver solder. Or four for two sticks if you are rusty lol. Either way under a tenner including the propane is very cheap for a venturi that works. £30 would normally be considered cheap and custom jobs in stainless can run you nearly £200.

Twenty4Seven
06-19-2007, 01:43 PM
Hi Ant

I used a similar scheme to make my venturi except I used a 22mm T...

See here (http://www.greenvalleybiofuels.co.uk/eductor2.htm)

Cheers

Nick

Ant
06-19-2007, 02:19 PM
Yes it is similar although you have chosen a different stratagy for the outlet side without a narrow inlet if that makes sense.

22mm won't work on my low flow rate pump. I took one of Graham's handbeaten 22mm venturis and beat it down further to a 10mm throat with an 8mm side tube. It worked a bit but not as well as the lego one and the lego is much easier and quicker to make. With a higher flow rate pump it would be different of course.

What flow rate and pressure is your pump at? How well did the venturi work?

were you using it as a meth injector or as an in tank mixing eductor? The latter would explain the different nozzle stratagy. I might try it myself for that.

Twenty4Seven
06-19-2007, 02:57 PM
Hi Ant

I have one of Graham's masterpieces (serial No 002) on my preheat/drying tank. I use it to draw air into the oil stream, which it does very well.

We tested several venturis at Graham's a few weeks back and the one we're talking about would draw liquid at about 4 litres per minute, but only at a head of less than 3 feet or so. I actually don't use it for injecting methoxide, I do that the conventional way before the pump. The pump is a Clark CEB102, basically the brass bodied version of the infamous HF pump - 33 litres/min.

It's becoming increasingly clear that you don't need to be scared of constricting the bore to form the venturi throat when you have a low flow rate pump. It's the pressure difference across the device that counts so I will try one to your dimensions. I'm also looking forward to trying one of Jamesrl's works of art, dimensioned to suit the HF type pump. I'll report back on the outcome.

Cheers

Nick

Ant
06-19-2007, 04:18 PM
It's becoming increasingly clear that you don't need to be scared of constricting the bore to form the venturi throat when you have a low flow rate pump. It's the pressure difference across the device that counts so I will try one to your dimensions.


In fact I find the narrow constrictions are needed to get the local fluid velocity that is an important element in the design. For a given flow rate pump that has enough head pressure to cope with the loading of the constriction then the narrower pipes and jets will increase suction by speeding up the flow of fluid over the surfaces.

As I understand it, this surface fluid flow is the basic mechanism governed by the Bournelli equation that describes how low pressure zones are created. I'm a bit hazy on the exact details.

I intend to build another even thinner venturi using 4mm and 6mm fittings, instead of the 8mm and 10mm, if I can get them. I have been pointed towards refrigeration air con type places as a source. Time will tell

jamesrl
06-19-2007, 08:31 PM
I intend to build another even thinner venturi using 4mm and 6mm fittings,

Hi Ant,

I've just been down that road whilst making an eductor for RickdaTeck, I took the nozzle down to 5mm. Drew it down from 15mm, well you now me, have hammer will bash, anyway the back pressure was so great I had to go round tightening up joins that have never leaked before.

I checked to see how far it would squirt, over 50ft, wow, but of cause there's a down side, the total volume going through was very low.

I see the constriction in a venturi as a compromise between through put of oil and preformance of the venturi, and I've made a few.

Using the same pump and varying the venturi design I got from 30sec/ltr to 2.8sec/ltr.

Which one is best for our process? you tell me.

Jim.

Ant
06-20-2007, 12:09 AM
Traditionally we would say 30 seconds is better. Slow introduction of meth to aid complet and even mixing with all the oil.

Others have gone for fast introduction of meth with powerful mixing stratagies of one kind or another. Both approaches work. It's all about the mixing. Getting all the meth in contact with all the oil.

Which is the best given venturi depends on the pump. I want more positive lift more than I want faster meth introduction. The current venturi will lift the meth from floor level sometimes but ocasionally needs the tub lifting a bit. Not hard or risky but slightly dissatisfying. I also want a fast enough exit stream to drive an eductor.

The turbulant mixing zone of the venturi outlet tube changes things a bit and may allow for faster meth addition, still with even and complete mixing.

In my case I have around a ten to one mixing ration. I think up to five to one would be fine if I can do it. Faster than that and the meth is less evenly distributed to begin with; roughly speaking.

As I said it depends on what achives this for a given pump. I'm not sure throughput would be a problem with my particular pump. At 20 odd bar nothing seems to slow it down so far. Hopefully the silver solder will stem any tendency to leak. I can only try it and see what happens.

Ant
06-20-2007, 12:33 AM
Here is the good pic courtesy of Graham. I would have used an unequal tee with an 8mm side branch if I could have found one.

jamesrl
06-20-2007, 10:25 AM
Hi Ant,

That is the basic design of my Supa-Dupa Venturi for Hi-output pumps, 90ltr/min plus.
The only difference is the anlges and soothness of transition.

A master piece in simplicity, well done.

Jim.

Marky
06-20-2007, 08:06 PM
Hi Ant.....thanks for the plan from store bought stuff. I do have one question. What is the purpose of the (output side) 22mm:15mm reducer with internl stops filed off? It looks (from this pic) that it would not be required at all.

Anypne try this with Non-metric fittings (like 1/2, 3/4, 1" copper pipe sweat fittings)?

Ant
06-23-2007, 10:12 PM
Thank you gents. The output 22mm adaptor is purely to fit to the adaptor not shown that goes from 22mm compression to inch bsp female threaded. I have an inch bsp male threaded inlet on my tank. The 15mm tube passes inside that and into the tank.

I have just got some quarter inch (6mm) to half inch reducer that will mate with 8mm and 15mm metric adaptors with a bit of push and solder. sometime in the next week or so I hope to try my next generation lego venturi. I have two designs in mind and am not sure how each one will work. The both use a quarter inch female with qurter inch pipe soldered in for the outlet jet and a qurter inch female without the pipe for the inlet jet. I would also consider an 8mm fitting for the inlet jet.

The basic difference is that one design would use a 15mm tee as in my first attempt; the other an 8mm tee joining only the small ends of the reducers.

Both designs will need a steel or stainless inch bsp shell for mechanical strength. I have found this a slight problem with the current design due to the mechanical loading of the inch bsp hydraulic hose.

jamesrl
07-03-2007, 09:42 PM
Another Home made venturi this time for the Pitbull pump.

Dont forget. If you would like a venturi for the GL Ecosystem just PM me.

Jim.

DJ8DS
07-24-2007, 09:05 PM
Graham,
what do you think about ading a small vacuum pump to your design.
The pump should draw a light vacuum from the headspace of the destillate container through a separate moisture trap.
Vent should be closed.
The light vacuum could lower the boiling point of the methanol and you will use less energy to keep the BD/Byproduct at the temperature needed for destillation.
I think, this could be another step in the evolution of your system.

vy 73 Dieter

GrahamLaming
07-25-2007, 12:07 PM
Hi Dieter.

The vacuum pump seems good in theory, but in practise it is difficult to make a benefit with it.

The light vacuum will cause the boiling point to lower, which will cause the vacuum to be reduced by more vapour, so you will need to pump more.

As you pump, the temperature of the liquid will drop, caused by usage of latent heat of vaporisation of the methanol, so you will need to make a stronger vacuum, unless you add more heat.

In fact, using a vacuum pump uses more energy, because the vacuum pump will have an efficiency perhaps 40%.

Provided your insulation is good, normal atmospheric distillation works well, and the venturi allows you to recover methanol even from 25C, because we are not using boiling, but evaporation, and at atmospheric pressure, so no problems of pressure/vacuum vessel design, and no moving parts apart from the liquid pump.

DJ8DS
07-25-2007, 03:29 PM
Hi Graham,
thanks for ur reply.
I`m happy to hear, that you are not affected by the flooding.
...
You are right and I think I didnt understood your design to the end :-)
The best points are the lack of moving parts except the pump and the simple design.
Ading a vacuum pump would make the things more complicated and will not ad a real benefit.

Thanks for ur explanation, I will build my processor with your design and learn more.

have a nice day &
vy 73 Dieter

jamesrl
08-12-2007, 10:45 PM
Yes I'm still making venturi's, here's another three.

As you can see they have been made for iron pipework.

From left to right.

3/4" for pumps over 60ltr/min flow.
3/4" for Clearwater, HF and Grunfos pumps up to 60ltr/min.
1" for Clearwater, HF and Grunfos pumps up to 60ltr/min.

These will be going to USA, Europe and Australia.

Jim.

Ant
08-21-2007, 01:08 PM
working on the smaller throuated lego venturi with an aim to adding two low pressure inlet tubes. One to recirculate vapours from te tank and the other to inject the meth.

IN the mean time found that oil temp makes noticable difference to perfromance of venturi.

Using higher temps (73deg C to 76deg C) improves performace over 60deg C and gives 60 to 63 deg C processing temp after the meth has been added. This much improves reaction time and completeness.

Ant
08-28-2007, 11:37 PM
Having sorted out the seals on my tank I can see I will need a vent with a condensor after the fashion of Grahams design to relieve pressure without releasing vapour.

jamesrl
09-04-2007, 11:52 PM
Hi folks,
Yes I'm still around and playing with venturi's. I've just completed my first steel venturi, made to the same design as the copper ones. The attachment shows a 1" model for the ubiquitous HF/Clear water pump, it should work with any pump upto 60ltr/min.
It takes about twice the time to make a steel venturi as a copper one, this is due to the malleabilty of the material, it's much stiffer, so a lot more bashing with my little magic hammer.

Jim

jamesrl
09-04-2007, 11:55 PM
and here it is with two friends.

Paulus
09-05-2007, 01:00 AM
Truly amazing, init Guv?

jamesrl
09-11-2007, 03:39 PM
I thought I made a big venturi when I made one for "Bright Young Mavrick", it's tiny compared to the latest.

Have look at this baby, it's for "Kumar", a 2" monster it stands 14" tall and made of steel, the one next to it is a 3/4" model.
It is for a specific use, I'll let Kumar to tell you all about it.

Jim.

Paulus
09-11-2007, 03:53 PM
Holy cr*p, Batman!

customcutter
09-12-2007, 02:33 AM
I am building a Gl ecosystem processor. I hammered out a 3/4" venturi this weekend. The smaller tube is 1/4" and mounted at +/- 45deg (soldered flush with no extension into the flow correct?). I remember reading that the discharge side should be 30cm or about 12". Any optimal length on the inlet side past the 90deg. fitting? I have a NT pump and was going to plumb the suction and discharge with 3/4" copper or black pipe. Would it be worth while to upsize the suction and discharge to 1" ahead of the venturi? Any problems with copper on this side of the reactor/pump? Is 50/50 tin/lead suitable for soldering fittings either on the condensor or venturi? I used to have some silver solder but all I could find was the 50/50?

thanks in advance,
Customcutter

GrahamLaming
09-12-2007, 07:27 AM
Hi Customcutter.

If the venturi is made of 3/4 pipe, keep the discharge pipe 3/4 also. You don't want any step-changes in pipe size after the venturi, or the flow pattern will become turbulent and you'll lose efficiency.

Copper is OK.

The inlet can be only a few inches from the 90 deg elbow.

Your 50/50 solder should be OK, but to be safe, perhaps use flexible hose on the vacuum inlet, to avoid stressing the joint.

Hope that helps.

tgomes
09-12-2007, 08:59 AM
"The inlet can be only a few inches from the 90 deg elbow."

Graham,
On your system it seems that the venturi is mounted horizontal while Jamesrl said he mounts his verticaly. Is there any advantage to either orientation?

Thanks,
Tony

GrahamLaming
09-12-2007, 09:32 AM
Hi Tony

The higher up the tank you mount the venturi, the less liquid backpressure is acting against it, so higher up = more 'suck'.

Also, no risk of the tank emptying thru the venturi's suction port.

However, the venturi works best when full of liquid, and a horizontal tube can empty if the flow rate is low.

Also, you want as little restriction after the venturi, and elbows can add a fair amount of flow restriction.

So, the ideal would probably be a 45 degree angled vertical venturi right at the top of the tank, angling into the tank at a slant, with no elbows after it.

This is all being very critical, because I know James' system works well down at the bottom, and mine works OK up at the top.

I guess so long as your pump has plenty of spare power, it won't make much difference one way or another.

But personally, I'd still opt for the venturi at the top, above the liquid level, no chance of leakage thru the venturi, and you can remove / fit the venturi easily without having to drain down piping.

A system which is only performing marginally at the top of the tank, will probably not work at all if mounted at the bottom.

Poor performance is most likely to be due to insufficient flow rate from the pump.

jamesrl
09-12-2007, 10:20 AM
Graham,

I couldn't have put it better. When explaining the vertical position to people, I always make them aware of the backflow problem and advise a valve on the vacuum tube.

Jim.

jon h.
09-12-2007, 11:38 AM
What temperature are you guys operating at to condense the methanol from the BD and about how long does it take?

customcutter
09-12-2007, 08:42 PM
Graham:

Thanks for the reply. I should have explained myself better. I meant should I upsize the suction and discharge of the NT pump to 1 inch in front of the 3/4" venturi, not the discharge of the venturi. I know that there will be a slight drop in pressure due to drag on the 3/4" vs. 1".

I beleive Rick da Tech (sorry if it wasn't you Rick) has stated that the HF and NT pumps have very little difference in pumping capacity even though the HF is rated 330gpm and the NT is rated at 770gpm. But popular opinion is that the NT is better built.

I don't know if anyone has done a test on pumping rates with larger suctions or discharges on these pumps? I think the larger suction would be more important than the discharge but might as well do both.

thanks again
CC

Ant
09-15-2007, 10:19 AM
Having sorted out the seals on my tank I can see I will need a vent with a condensor after the fashion of Grahams design to relieve pressure without releasing vapour

On reflection I think a vent to the meth tank to will work well and be simpler.

Ant
09-15-2007, 10:20 AM
Impressive work with steel Jim.

jamesrl
09-15-2007, 10:35 AM
Thanks for the compliment Ant, I'm still looking for the ultimate venturi.

Keep watching this channel, could it be Stainless Steel next?

Ant
09-15-2007, 10:42 AM
Now stainless would be truly impressive.

Dave Calkins
09-16-2007, 05:48 PM
Jim's work is impressive. Stainess truly would be impressive and it would be a ton of work. If anyone could do it, my bets are on Jim.

RickDaTech
09-16-2007, 06:43 PM
Originally posted by GrahamLaming:

Also, no risk of the tank emptying thru the venturi's suction port.

<<<snip>>>

But personally, I'd still opt for the venturi at the top, above the liquid level, no chance of leakage thru the venturi, and you can remove / fit the venturi easily without having to drain down piping.


I will be moving my venturi to the top, even though it works fine at the bottom. My venturi has a check valve in it and I thought it was safe from leaking, but after sucking up three gallons off the floor I can say that those check valves are not foolproof.


Originally posted by customcutter:

Thanks for the reply. I should have explained myself better. I meant should I upsize the suction and discharge of the NT pump to 1 inch in front of the 3/4" venturi, not the discharge of the venturi. I know that there will be a slight drop in pressure due to drag on the 3/4" vs. 1".

I beleive Rick da Tech (sorry if it wasn't you Rick) has stated that the HF and NT pumps have very little difference in pumping capacity even though the HF is rated 330gpm and the NT is rated at 770gpm. But popular opinion is that the NT is better built.

After a tearing these pumps apart and testing them for flow. I think the in and out ports would be better sized as 3/4" in and 1/2" out. Restricting the output has little effect on flow rate. If you get lucky and get a clean casting, you might notice a difference in flow by going from 3/4" to 1" on the input. I'm tempted to pull out the grinding stones and see if opening up the internal input port makes a difference.

jamesrl
09-16-2007, 07:35 PM
Another vote of confidence, thanks Dave.

I have the sheet stainless already, fittings are easy to get hold of. I'm biding on a plant to weld stainless at the moment, so fingers crossed.

But I do have a friend who has a TIG plant, and he's a far better welder than I will ever be. If push comes to shove, my man will do the welding for me.

Jim.

Greywynd
09-16-2007, 11:25 PM
Too bad you're across the pond James, I can fire up the tig welder in my shop for that!!

Mark

jamesrl
09-17-2007, 12:32 AM
Hi Greywynd,

Thanks for the offer, I might post the parts to you for welding. LOL

Come and join us on this thread, along with your venturi.

Jim.

tgomes
09-17-2007, 11:52 AM
Rick da tech,

I see at your web site that you have the Mazzie venturi. Is this the one you are using? If so how has your experience with it been. I have 2 of these and will be using soon with a grundfoss 26-99 pump (27 gpm) Which model did you use?

Thanks
Tony

jamesrl
10-01-2007, 01:41 PM
After a bit of re-modeling to suit Kumars needs, I have finally finished "The Kumar Monster".

It is made for 2" pipe with a 1" vacuum tube. With the right pump this will suck pets and small children into it.

Paulus
10-01-2007, 11:05 PM
There he goes, blowing his venturi again http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Marky
10-01-2007, 11:19 PM
Hi Jamesrl... I was hoping you might help a dum putz like myself understand something.....

What is the flow direction of fluid through your latets picture? Bottom to top? (fluid enters through the "short" cone and exits out the "large/longer" cone? (That is what I am guessing, but could be wrong).

That looks really nice.......I currently have a pump (second hand Dayton/Teel that has 1.25" inlet and 1" oulet, and I best I could measure/guesstimate, it does about 25 gpm. (~75 gallon batches in a ~100 gallon processor)

jamesrl
10-02-2007, 12:58 AM
Hi Marky,

You guess right, short in long out, bottom to top.
The pump sound good approx. 100ltr/min, that'll make a venturi sing if you use one.

Hi Paul,

If I don't blow it, who will? Daren't ask the wife.

Marky
10-02-2007, 03:52 AM
Jamesrl... would you care to share some details of the "innards".... (like does the short cone extend into the long cone?)

jamesrl
10-02-2007, 10:46 AM
Hi Marky,

There is no secret inside any venuri, the cones meet smoothly inside. 6Odeg inward cone 10Deg outward cone. the hard bit is making one.

The principle is simple, the making is the difficult part.
Ask the members who have had a try, I'm sure there's plenty with stories tell about there efforts.

Mad metal basher.

Marky
10-03-2007, 03:54 AM
I have to admit i was thinkig of trying with pipes/fittins and some sheetmetal (rolled into the cones) and a welder...

But I am guessing I will (like other before me) ending lining your palms with silver.

(Dang that last picture is a nice looking unit...)

Paulus
10-03-2007, 07:15 AM
Jim is Kumar's venturi hammered out of pipe or welded up out of sheet please?

jamesrl
10-03-2007, 09:40 AM
It's fabricated, even the 1" vacuum tube. The threaded ends are made from a 2" nipple cut in half (I don't have the tools to cut a 2" tread).

I have a new type of venturi ready for public viewing, I'll be publishing the photo's later to day.

mikas
10-03-2007, 10:14 AM
I recon it's mine http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ???

jamesrl
10-03-2007, 11:05 PM
You could be right Mikas.

jamesrl
10-12-2007, 09:35 PM
The new type Venturi.
The venturi itself is fixed inside a piece of standard pipe, making it more robust. It dosen't work any better than previous models, it's just stronger.

jamesrl
10-12-2007, 09:49 PM
And here's a couple more ready for dispatch.
A 1" and 1 1/4".

Paulus
10-18-2007, 09:04 PM
Jim, any chance of a diagram please to show how these are constructed?

Paul

jamesrl
10-19-2007, 06:04 PM
I'll post a section sketch soon. Don't have time tonight, off for a night out down the old rubba dub (Public house, Pub) wiv me old China (china plate - mate, friend). So it's a quick S**t, shower n shave and down the frog (frog and toad, road) after I've giv'n the daisy's ( daisy roots, boots, shoes) a quick once over.
I'll talk to you ice creams (ice cream freezers, geezers, gentlemen) later.

TurbinePowered
10-21-2007, 11:31 AM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
I'll post a section sketch soon. Don't have time tonight, off for a night out down the old rubba dub (Public house, Pub) wiv me old China (china plate - mate, friend). So it's a quick S**t, shower n shave and down the frog (frog and toad, road) after I've giv'n the daisy's ( daisy roots, boots, shoes) a quick once over.
I'll talk to you ice creams (ice cream freezers, geezers, gentlemen) later.


I love reading your posts. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

jamesrl
10-21-2007, 08:30 PM
It's nice to know someone is reading and enjoying them, they are, after all to educate and enliten those who wish to learn, or for those that don't, get some info rammed down there gully 'oles (throats).

Yours Most Sincerely.

James

Dave Calkins
10-22-2007, 09:10 AM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
It's nice to know someone is reading and enjoying them, they are, after all to educate and enliten those who wish to learn, or for those that don't, get some info rammed down there gully 'oles (throats).

Yours Most Sincerely.

James

For educational purposes, wouldn't that be gully 'oles (gullet holes,throats). http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I too enjoyed the fun and levity, uhm, I mean the info getting shoved down the ol pie hole, (throat).

Ant
10-22-2007, 10:46 PM
The new type Venturi.
The venturi itself is fixed inside a piece of standard pipe, making it more robust. It dosen't work any better than previous models, it's just stronger.


As I first suggested on page eight of this thread. Nice to see someone pays attention and takes it onboard. How do you want to forward the royalties? http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif LOL

jamesrl
10-23-2007, 01:13 AM
Hi Ant,

Nice to hear from you again. Are you refering to the venturi Graham drew for you, If so there's no connection between yours and mine, therefore no royalties, sorry.

You might even owe me some, as I had pulished the venturi design you used, all be it drawn from copper pipe and not fittings, long before you, so there. http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Ant
10-23-2007, 12:16 PM
Originally posted by Ant:
Thank you gents. The output 22mm adaptor is purely to fit to the adaptor not shown that goes from 22mm compression to inch bsp female threaded. I have an inch bsp male threaded inlet on my tank. The 15mm tube passes inside that and into the tank.

I have just got some quarter inch (6mm) to half inch reducer that will mate with 8mm and 15mm metric adaptors with a bit of push and solder. sometime in the next week or so I hope to try my next generation lego venturi. I have two designs in mind and am not sure how each one will work. The both use a quarter inch female with qurter inch pipe soldered in for the outlet jet and a qurter inch female without the pipe for the inlet jet. I would also consider an 8mm fitting for the inlet jet.

The basic difference is that one design would use a 15mm tee as in my first attempt; the other an 8mm tee joining only the small ends of the reducers.

Both designs will need a steel or stainless inch bsp shell for mechanical strength. I have found this a slight problem with the current design due to the mechanical loading of the inch bsp hydraulic hose.

No James, I was refering to the last paragraph in the above posting where i identified that mechanical loading had caused me problems and that a steel shell would be the way to solve this problem. Perhaps you read it at the time then forgot about it until you felt `inspired` by your subconscious later. Easily done, especially as we get older, assuming you are least as old as I am.

Obviously I am glad you are using the design but we we all like to be credited for our contributions.

On a lighter note I did use the orifice dimensions from one of your designs when I made a lego venturi. This was dictated by the physics of the sitiuation. However since I only made one and you have made several jacketed venturis (so far) I think I shoild still be in pocket on that one http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Now all I need is a numbered Swiss bank account to transfer the funds to...

jamesrl
10-23-2007, 05:56 PM
Point taken.
I bet you're a spring chicken compared to me, but if you are as old as you imply, how about I give you an account number for your wedge.

Ant
10-24-2007, 12:54 AM
Well I'm old enough that my mind is no longer quite as efficient as it once was... I suspect you are older from comments you have made in the past.

You can save my royalties until there is enough for a pint I can collect if I`m ever passing. It would be nice to sit down with you for a chat in the pub if I happen by your way.

jamesrl
10-24-2007, 10:30 AM
That would be nice, we could talk about the old day's. I remeber Nelsons home coming, that was a sad day.

I'll borrow a piggy bank from my great great grandson to put your royalties in. I'll let you know when you have enough for a pint, but allowing for inflation that could be a year or two away.

acme12
11-21-2007, 05:27 PM
Jamesrl,

Have you ever tried to make venturi with "metal spinning metod:"

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwrk0SwDJhI&feature=related

jamesrl
11-21-2007, 07:23 PM
I work in my garage with basic tools, a spinning machine with all the tooling is very expencive.
After watching the video clip, I recon if I started with the blank ready to work, the same as he has, I'd be finished shaping a cone before the got half way along the former, and carbon free.

I'll stick with my Magic Hammer. I did enjoy the video, thanks.

Jim.

jamesrl
11-30-2007, 11:04 PM
Hi to all my readers,

Evolution marches on, I have now put my copper venturi's inside a pipe for added strenght, both 22mm/3/4"and 28mm/1".
The example in the attachment is 22mm/3/4" with compression fittings, screw and solder fittings are also available.

Spencnaz
11-30-2007, 11:41 PM
I have posted my own design on another thread but would like to share it here.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b10/Spencnaz/HD-1InjectionVenturiRevB.jpg

I had a local machine shop here in my town manufacture a prototype out of mild steel for about $25 bucks. I found a hole-in-the-wall machine shop that wanted to make it for the hell of it.

Ant
12-03-2007, 08:19 PM
I hope you are going to store my royalties up as well Spencnaz lol. Be nice of someone to send me one of these venturi in steel tube jobs if they felt so inclined to reward me for the original idea. Never had time to make one myself.

Looking at your lovely diagram I notice you still use a side tube on the inner venturi. Is this strictly needed? would not a small hole in the venturi and a side tube in the steel pipe be easier to fabricate and work in much the same way? Which way do you do it Jim?

Just came online for an update on the original lego venturi. After changing the pump for a 60litre a minute one the LV could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch as the saying goes.

The meth goes in twice as fast but the oil is also moving twice as fast so the ratio of the mix stays the same. Faultless mixing and reactions.

jamesrl
12-03-2007, 10:59 PM
Hi Ant,

Go back to my post from 12 Oct. page 10, you'll see how I make mine. These venturi's will suck in small children and animals.

60ltr/min? why not get a proper pump, I've got two 164ltr/min pumps. I wouldn't consider anything under 80ltr/min. I've just supplied a reactor and pump 134ltr/min to a customer, he couldn't believe it when it emptied his 200ltr storage tank in just 1 1/2 mins.

Jim.

Jim.

Spencnaz
12-04-2007, 01:53 AM
Originally posted by Ant:
I hope you are going to store my royalties up as well Spencnaz lol. Be nice of someone to send me one of these venturi in steel tube jobs if they felt so inclined to reward me for the original idea. Never had time to make one myself.

Looking at your lovely diagram I notice you still use a side tube on the inner venturi. Is this strictly needed? would not a small hole in the venturi and a side tube in the steel pipe be easier to fabricate and work in much the same way? Which way do you do it Jim?

Just came online for an update on the original lego venturi. After changing the pump for a 60litre a minute one the LV could suck the chrome off a trailer hitch as the saying goes.

The meth goes in twice as fast but the oil is also moving twice as fast so the ratio of the mix stays the same. Faultless mixing and reactions.

Hi Ant,

I based the design on GL's processor and decided on machining it out of steel rather than working in copper.

The side tube is the suction port for the venturi. It will be tapped for a valve.

Ant
12-05-2007, 12:09 AM
decided on machining it out of steel rather than working in copper.

Ahh I see. You machined it out of a solid steel bar. Not the copper in steel sheath type I suggested. Your's should be the last word in solid engineering and physical strength. Beyond my tools and skills to copy but nicely done.

Ant
12-05-2007, 12:29 AM
Go back to my post from 12 Oct. page 10, you'll see how I make mine

Thanks I missed the body and core pic until you pointed me to it. I see you use a slit in the inner body for a hole and a side tube on the outer body for the suction connection. Easier to fabricate and both your earlier work and physics suggested it would work as well.

As for the pump... Well I really see no need to go larger than needed for the job in hand. The venturi does the vast majority of the mixing as the meth is added so there is no need for a faster pump.

The meth adds in around 14mins which is around two turnovers of the tank volume; a one in ten mixing ratio. This is a good time and ratio for the reaction time at the temps I use.
Everything is well mixed and almost finished reacting by the time the meth is all in.

More interesting is that the ratio stayed the same when the pump doubled in speed. This suggests a fixed ratio venturi could be made exactly on the 5 to 1 ratio needed for a continous process. I imagine it involves the relationship between the three main dia in the venturi. The main pipe, the neck and the suction port.

Spencnaz
12-05-2007, 01:51 AM
I will write an update on how the venturi is coming along tomorrow.

Spencnaz
12-05-2007, 11:00 PM
Update,

The first machine shop was unable to make the longer throat of the venturi with what tooling they had.

I conferred with another machinist and he said that a special bar/tool would have to be made to make the 10 degree throat.

I'm going to a technical college tomorrow to talk with them about what could be done to finish the part.

jamesrl
12-05-2007, 11:46 PM
Now you can see why found $25 an unbelievabley cheap price, as I said it would cost more than that just to set up the tooling.
If you were making 1000 on a self feeding CNC machine, that's already tooled for the job, then maybe somewhere near $25

Anyway good luck with the venturi, I hope it works well for you.

Jim.

Spencnaz
12-06-2007, 12:15 AM
Ugh, I don't need this, too much caffeine and a twisted back isn't helping.

ReM
12-06-2007, 12:24 AM
Originally posted by jamesrl:
Now you can see why found $25 an unbelievabley cheap price, as I said it would cost more than that just to set up the tooling.
If you were making 1000 on a self feeding CNC machine, that's already tooled for the job, then maybe somewhere near $25

Anyway good luck with the venturi, I hope it works well for you.

Jim.

Originally posted by Spencnaz:
Don't you ever use 'I told you so' on me. Last person who did that wound up in the hospital.

As stated before, the issue will be setting up a tool to run this, after that is done it will be a simple matter to manufacture the venture.

http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ReM

Spencnaz
12-06-2007, 04:21 PM
I'm off to a CNC machine shop later today to see if they can figure out how to make this thing.

I assure you, I'm in a much much better mood today.

RichScorze
12-08-2007, 11:26 PM
I biult my own venturi much like the drawing you have posted. I ran into similar problems with the machining of the throat. I made mine in sections and bolted it together.

my two cents worth.

Spencnaz
12-10-2007, 05:16 AM
That's not a bad idea! I have been thinking of modifying the design to accommodate an off the shelf taper reamer, but I'll have to dig through my Machinist's Handbook for a close enough taper profile.

nzunimogger
12-13-2007, 09:30 PM
I also thought about machining a venturi, but the internal 10deg outlet taper sounded like too much work.

Instead I turned the 10deg taper out of a piece of rimu - a NZ timber not much harder than pine - and used this to "cast" solder around using GL's first venturi method. This worked surprisingly well. The other end I drilled out to 7.5mm and then used a 19mm countersink and a 15mm countersink to give me the inlet taper. This isn't so close to the above design, with angles of 90deg transitioning to 75ish deg for the 15mm countersink. Suction inlet was 5mm.

It's still 4-5 times better than my first attempt (90deg inlet and outlet, 5mm throat), and now gives a flow rate of 5L/min, and it will lift at least 3m. If I borrow the lathe again, and improve the inlet angles to 50deg, what improvements could I expect (is it worth the effort)?

This venturi may actually be performing better than this, as I tried 5mm throat/4mm suction and 6.5mm throat/4mm suction and there wasn't much difference in flow rate when compared to the 7.5mm throat. The supply side of the pump was clear PVC tubing and this being compressed so the limiting factor may have been supply side flow restrictions.

With a pump delivering 70L/min, and a venturi machined to match Spence's drawing, what is the expected performance?

nzunimogger
12-13-2007, 10:35 PM
I think I've answered this one myself. James has previously said to expect 8L/min with a 90L/min pump. So 8 x 70/90 = 6.22 L/min, which means I'd get some improvement, but I'm not too far off what I can expect. Especially if I check the supply side flow.

This design allows me to easily attach a valve at the venturi and it just bolts into my system.

The picture shows the wooden taper, 19mm countersink, and the cork disc that I used to block one side of the tee when pouring the solder.

jamesrl
12-14-2007, 12:36 AM
You can get as much a 16ltr/min from a 90ltr/min pump with a conventional design venturi.
I have a design that will deliver 21+ltr/min with an 80ltr/min pump.
With a 70ltr/min pump the throat should be 8.5-9mm, vacuum tube 8mm ID.
Inlet angle 60degs, out 10degs, the vacuum hole should be centred 7mm from the narrowest point of the outlet side and square to the 5deg angle.
This should lift at least 12ft, I would expect it to deliver 10-12ltr/min with ease.
Hope that helps.

nzunimogger
12-14-2007, 07:42 AM
Thanks James

Looks like there is still room for improvement and I should make the effort to improve the inlet angles, as well as the angle of the suction inlet - mine is at an angle to the outlet taper rather than square (all these changes give an incremental improvement, I guess).

At least increasing the throat and suction diameters is easy - just out with the drill. The numbers I used were based on Graham's drawing for Spencer, and I think he was running/going to run a 70L/min pump - be interested to see how his performs with the numbers on the drawing (of course my conversions to metric could be wrong).

And if I'm still not happy, I'll just get the torch out, melt the solder, and have another go!

Thanks again James for sharing your expertise. It's much appreciated.

Shane

tgomes
12-14-2007, 08:38 AM
Inlet angle 60degs, out 10degs, the vacuum hole should be centred 7mm from the narrowest point of the outlet side and square to the 5deg angle.

Lost me there Jim http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

What 5deg angle??

Tony

jamesrl
12-14-2007, 10:20 AM
Hi Tony,
The angle at the apex of the outlet cone is 10degs which means that the slope is 5degs off the centre line and the vacuum tube should be 90degs to the slope.
I hope I've painted a better picture for you.

Nzuni, why don't you make plugs for both cones and fix them together with a centre pin. cast the solder and with draw the plugs from each end of the tube, no machining.

Jim

tgomes
12-14-2007, 10:35 AM
NOW I see http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks,
Tony

nzunimogger
12-15-2007, 12:33 AM
James

I've thought about that. It would work if I was using just a straight piece of pipe and then drilling and tapping the suction inlet, but using the threaded tee means the "seal" for the inlet mould may not be as good as it is across thread.

I'll have a play once I have access to a lathe again.

jamesrl
12-15-2007, 12:56 AM
do you meam like thesehttp://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii82/jamesrl47/2pipeventuris.jpg
On the left 1" and 1 1/4" on the right.

Spencnaz
12-15-2007, 04:09 AM
Those look great.

News update: after talking with the local technical college, they're working on what tools can be used to make the venturi I made a few weeks ago.

One that that will have to be eliminated is the straight section that I currently have in the design. Another professor is going to dig through their library of taper reamers to see if there is one that will approximate the 10 for the outlet side of the venturi.

I let them know that this design is somewhat malleable and that we can work to make a design that could be mass produced if possible.

I'll keep you posted as more information becomes available.

Now back to our regularly scheduled programming.

jamesrl
12-15-2007, 10:55 AM
Hi Spencer,

After all the searching for tooling, which Imo is unecessary as it would only take an hour to make a boring bar to do the job.
Have you considered having one cast in steel. I have in the passed done some work for our local foundry, I'm sure if I approached them it wouldn't be a problem. One the core and core box have been made, these are made of wood, the rest is easy.

Jim.

Spencnaz
12-15-2007, 04:18 PM
Jim,

There has been talk of a boring bar as well, but the reduced throat would present problems.

There was talk of making the venturi larger in diameter and having reducers on either end, but I would be concerned about flow restrictions.

jamesrl
12-15-2007, 07:36 PM
[QUOTE]
There has been talk of a boring bar as well, but the reduced throat would present problems.[QUOTE]

Not to a real hands on engineer, I remember old George Stephenson and his Rocket steam engine, he thought he would have problems boring his cylinders but I soon put him straight on boring bars, and the rest is history.

Spencnaz
12-16-2007, 05:49 AM
I guess you've been around since the earth cooled off then, eh James? http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

jamesrl
12-16-2007, 10:20 AM
I'm not quite that old, but, Old Father Times is my great grandson.
I waited years for Rudolf (he talked about it for ages) to invent his engine, he did it just in time 'cause my Bio was beginning to oxidise, and I couldn't wait to try iy out.

Ant
12-17-2007, 10:33 PM
You can get as much a 16ltr/min from a 90ltr/min pump with a conventional design venturi.
I have a design that will deliver 21+ltr/min with an 80ltr/min pump.
With a 70ltr/min pump the throat should be 8.5-9mm, vacuum tube 8mm ID.
Inlet angle 60degs, out 10degs, the vacuum hole should be centred 7mm from the narrowest point of the outlet side and square to the 5deg angle.
This should lift at least 12ft, I would expect it to deliver 10-12ltr/min with ease.

Bear in mind that if the venturi is your primary mixer not just a meth injector you idealy want to inject in multiples of a 5 to one ratio for even(ish) distribution of the meth in the oil.

So for a 90 lpm pump you would like to get 18 lpm injection if possible. If not then 9 lpm would do just fine.

Our reaction is an exceptionally forgiving one and will tolerate devations but even inital mixing is desirable unless you have additionl tank mixing in place or are willing to let it all run for longer after the meth is all in to give it a chance to redistribute and react.

Even five to one (18lpm for the 90 lpm pump) is ideal but ten to one (9 lpm for the 90 lpm pump) could be faster in the long run than an intermediate speed as the meth will be evenly distributed in the oil and not require additional time to become evenly mixed and so achive reaction conditions for all of the oil.

Of course if your tank is small or you have a tank eductor, paddle or other tank mixing device in place then this will hoefully even out the mix without much of a time penalty, if any.

Spencnaz
01-10-2008, 12:18 AM
Venturi update,

I'm off to the technical college tomorrow morning to answer some questions on the design they're doing for me.

They've roughed out the venturi but have questions about the venturi port itself.

Stay tuned, I'll take pictures tomorrow of the prototype.

Spencnaz
01-10-2008, 07:09 PM
Hey all,

Update: Here is the roughed out venturi as of this morning. It's going to cost about 150 bucks (OUCH!) to have this completed but it will be literally bullet proof for my needs.

Pics below.
Down the exit throat.
http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b10/Spencnaz/DCP_2202.jpg

The entire venturi, as you can see it looks like an ordinary pipe nipple.

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b10/Spencnaz/DCP_2201.jpg

You should see the entry throat for the venturi, a wonderful piece of work if I do say so myself. I'll post more pictures when the unit is finished here in about a week or so.

jamesrl
01-11-2008, 08:48 PM
Nice piece of work, I take it they sorted out the boring bar.

It looks identical to one of my steel tube venturis.

Spencnaz
01-11-2008, 10:43 PM
Yeah, the pictures don't really do it justice but in the future I should try to make it more machinable.

Ant
01-15-2008, 01:52 PM
It's going to cost about 150 bucks (OUCH!) to have this completed

For the first `prototype`. That might come down once the set up and methodology is established though?

Ant
01-15-2008, 02:38 PM
It looks identical to one of my steel tube venturis.

On the outside but not on the inside. Spencnaz's is a solid piece of steel. `Yours` are tubes within tubes; enclosing a hollow space. A design first proposed by myself.

I was one of the first people to admire and credit your crafting capabilities Jim. They are excellent. It would be nice if you could return the compliment by following the forum (also scientific) tradition of crediting originators of ideas and designs even though you are the one actually making them. No one disputes your superior crafting abilities, I would recommend you to anyone wanting a beaten venturi, but designers like credit too.

I know it doesn’t seem to bother Graham who originated the beaten venturi design you often use. But he is, perhaps, a better man than me and has an abundance of designs to his credit.

Having said that if the price were right and I had a choice I would go for Spencnaz's design over my lego in a tube design or Grahams beaten venturi in my tube design.

Why? Simply because it is identical in function and made from solid steel with no hollows. Heavier I know. Perhaps even over engineered for some environments. But something in me likes the solid bullet proof toughness such a design could be made to embody.

I was reaching for that, by easier methods, when I conceived of the venturi in a steel tube that Jim now makes and sells (and welcome to do so, It`s proper credit I want, not control or cash).

Spencnaz takes this one step further by an (initially) more difficult production method.
If he can achieve a repeatable and cost effective production process it really is the last word in toughness. Except I'd ideally want 306 stainless. Titanium would just be silly http://biodiesel.infopop.cc/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If Spencnaz can establish the method and financial viability of this style of production on his side of the pond we could use someone on this side to duplicate his design. Jim obviously springs to mind even though it departs from his prefered hammer bashing methods.

jamesrl
01-15-2008, 06:48 PM
Hi Ant,

There is quite a difference between my design and Spencer's.

Spencer has a single point injection to one side of the main stream, where as mine has a 360deg input, thus you get an even intake of methoxide all round the main stream.

On my production models there are 3 plus injection points depending on the pump flow. the multi point injection also injects air into the stream more evenly to help with de-mething.

Does the post you refer to pre-date these. This fisrt, one a semi-tube venturi dated 21st March 2007.[img]http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii82/jamesrl47/PICT0005.jpg

jamesrl
01-15-2008, 07:04 PM
Or this fully tube version dated the 2nd June 2007.http://i262.photobucket.com/albums/ii82/jamesrl47/Pete19563.jpg
If it does, then I take my hat of to you and will send the royalties to you as soon as they reach £1.

Jim.